D&D (2024) Gold & Other Treasure (Can we get off the treadmill?)

[Lanefan]

My bullet points describe D&D. Currying favor, helping others, buying equipment, using coin to set things right/keeping things safe, etc. That is D&D. I am sorry you don't see it that way, and that you are stuck on the magic item bit. The magic item bit is a classic trope; get the four parts of the crown to destroy the great evil. Get the precious ring to this location and destroy it. Find this magic sword to slay the dragon. I mean, it doesn't have to be every quest, but it can certainly be a part of a larger quest, such a Drizzt trying to find that mask of alter self (or something like that) so he could walk freely through town.

Most of my bullet points point out uses for gold - in a D&D game. The fact that this thread cannot seem to either A) only equate it to magic items or B) refuse the suggestions in the DMG and PHB for playstyle baffles me.

Sadly, where you're running aground is that most of your bullet points represent downtime activities, and neither the designers at WotC nor some posters here seem to give a fig about anything to do with non-adventuring downtime.

 

[Scott Christian]

Sadly, where you're running aground is that most of your bullet points represent downtime activities, and neither the designers at WotC nor some posters here seem to give a fig about anything to do with non-adventuring downtime.

I think you're right. I was trying to put my finger on it, because in all honesty, I couldn't really figure it out. That is why I brought up the pillars of play. Maybe, it's that or the DM or a style of play. But I don't get it. It is so easy to implement, no matter the style of play, that I don't see it as a problem. And even further, I don't understand what they would put into the DMG to correct this supposed problem.

 

[Lanefan]

I think you're right. I was trying to put my finger on it, because in all honesty, I couldn't really figure it out. That is why I brought up the pillars of play. Maybe, it's that or the DM or a style of play. But I don't get it. It is so easy to implement, no matter the style of play, that I don't see it as a problem. And even further, I don't understand what they would put into the DMG to correct this supposed problem.

Well, on quick thought, into the DMG could go:

--- stronghold construction costs and guidelines, along with same for other types of structures (inn, laboratory, temple, etc.)
--- promotion of downtime as the fourth pillar of play, and some DM-side advice on how to run it
--- DM-side advice on how to design settings such that when players/PCs interact with them during downtime the DM isn't left hanging
--- some sort of rules-enforced breaks from adventuring; level-up training used to fill this function and still can, but even without formal training rules there can still be a requirement to take a few weeks break every now and then - maybe your Con starts dropping after a certain amount of continuous days in the field, and that number can only be reset by 10 continuous days of rest in a safe location such as a town?
--- and yes, a well-thought-out (i.e. non-formulaic) price guide for magic items.

 

[tetrasodium]

That was my point in saying we are playing an adventure path by published by WoTC, they have it figured out. The players figuring it out was due to WoTC providing the opportunities. As for the DM responsible for how the world responds to players, you are 100% correct. And if a player chooses to put gold into something, say a charitable cause...

The DM responds. It is their job. It is what they signed up for. What type of DM is going to ignore a cleric donating 1000s of gold to their church? Making it like they're "flushing it down the toilet?" The answer - not a very good DM. In fact, I would argue it is one that is not even doing the basic job of the DM, which is exactly what you said it was - being responsible for how the world responds to players. As for luxury - how does that not matter? I guess it doesn't if you exclude the RP pillar from your game. But if you do use that pillar, it matters a lot. Spend coppers on a night's stay is sure to introduce to a different set of NPCs than spending dozens of gold.

We obviously strongly disagree on that bolded statement. I guess the above to, but I discussed that in the section above.

The DM/players must figure out what to do because no one book could ever encompass all the options. The DMG and PHB gives outlines specifically for this. But, if you are going to ignore the RP pillar of play, and make sure the PCs' only objective is to kill stuff, then I guess you're right. Gold isn't needed. But if your table even tries to encompass RP and a little bit of player initiative, then the gold economy is fine.

Case in point: Xanathar's has a very rare potions listed as 2,500gp to 25,000 gold (DMs Guide is 5,000 to 50,000), depending on the locale, condition, etc. How many of adventuring parties are running around with 5,000 gold, let alone 25,000?! We are level ten, and there are five players, and we have earned a total of maybe, 10,000-12,000. That is an estimate on the very high end. Of course, we spend a lot of it as I discussed earlier. That is with a published campaign. So even if you just used it to get ready for your next adventure, you could blow through the gold easily.

I agree with you, if you are ignoring one of the pillars of play in D&D. And, if you are ignoring any player motive outside of kill things. A one shot - I will give it to you. But a campaign, which I believe is how most people want to play, harbors character motivations that are not tied to killing stuff.
I mean, in your post, you make it seem as though the adventurers waltz in, are given the job, go kill something, and collect their reward. As if there are no other pieces between.

Wrong. The DMG states in large cities or places with magic schools they are for sale. In fact, they even give the DM a real-world reference, I don't know, probably so they can set up an RP situation. They state it might be a private event, similar to a high-end art auction. So the players might need to... curry favors... in order to get into that private auction.

In the end, if you feel the DM shouldn't have to do any work and just glance at a table and have it figure it out for you, then you are correct, you will never be happy with the D&D gold economy.

You aren't the only one to make an effort to turn this into a binary stormwind-like split where either people are real ROLEplayers who are going to find their oem uses for gold now that they are freed from needing to have needs for gold and magic items disrupt their freeform R O L E roleplay or they are dirty ROLLplayers who are ignoring the beauty because they are incapable of roleplay....

The two are not some kind of not a binary/boolean thing but by so completely designing against the need 5e tries to make it into one but only to one side.it is that effort to excise one path of the fork that makes pointing at the other half irrelevant

Sadly, where you're running aground is that most of your bullet points represent downtime activities, and neither the designers at WotC nor some posters here seem to give a fig about anything to do with non-adventuring downtime.

I'd say that the reef being run across is elsewhere. It doesn't matter how much someone cares about those downtime activities or not because they are not a solution to a brick wall being designed into a different area of the system when that area impacts so many aspects of non-downtime play

 

[Lanefan]

I'd say that the reef being run across is elsewhere. It doesn't matter how much someone cares about those downtime activities or not because they are not a solution to a brick wall being designed into a different area of the system when that area impacts so many aspects of non-downtime play

Being able to purchase items - assuming that's the brick wall to which you refer - can and does certainly affect a lot of non-downtime play but that actual buying (and selling!) is almost without exception a downtime activity. Thus, it again comes back to a design-level de-emphasis on downtime.

 

[Chaosmancer]

Case in point: Xanathar's has a very rare potions listed as 2,500gp to 25,000 gold (DMs Guide is 5,000 to 50,000), depending on the locale, condition, etc. How many of adventuring parties are running around with 5,000 gold, let alone 25,000?! We are level ten, and there are five players, and we have earned a total of maybe, 10,000-12,000. That is an estimate on the very high end. Of course, we spend a lot of it as I discussed earlier. That is with a published campaign. So even if you just used it to get ready for your next adventure, you could blow through the gold easily.

Apologies for picking a nit, but clarity compels me.

The DMG states that consumables like potions and scrolls are half-cost compared to normal items. So, while the DMG lists Very Rare items at 5,000 to 50,000 since Xanathar's is specifically talking about potions, they use the more precise measurement, 2,500 to 25,000

I only bring this up, in case you did not realize consumables are half price, as that may change how you approach scrolls.

 

[payn]

Well, on quick thought, into the DMG could go:

--- stronghold construction costs and guidelines, along with same for other types of structures (inn, laboratory, temple, etc.)
--- promotion of downtime as the fourth pillar of play, and some DM-side advice on how to run it
--- DM-side advice on how to design settings such that when players/PCs interact with them during downtime the DM isn't left hanging
--- some sort of rules-enforced breaks from adventuring; level-up training used to fill this function and still can, but even without formal training rules there can still be a requirement to take a few weeks break every now and then - maybe your Con starts dropping after a certain amount of continuous days in the field, and that number can only be reset by 10 continuous days of rest in a safe location such as a town?
--- and yes, a well-thought-out (i.e. non-formulaic) price guide for magic items.

Oh god no we don’t need mechanical penalties to force people into downtime. I’m glad stick design is out of fashion.

 

[Scott Christian]

Apologies for picking a nit, but clarity compels me.

The DMG states that consumables like potions and scrolls are half-cost compared to normal items. So, while the DMG lists Very Rare items at 5,000 to 50,000 since Xanathar's is specifically talking about potions, they use the more precise measurement, 2,500 to 25,000

I only bring this up, in case you did not realize consumables are half price, as that may change how you approach scrolls.

I didn't see where consumables are half in the DMG, but I was skimming while looking it up. So my apologies.

 

[Umbran]

I'll bow out then since I have no interest in a discussion focused exclusively on WotC 5e.

Honestly, that's just too bad. Screaming about WotC's failings here won't accomplish anything. I know of what I speak.

Mod Note:

If you state you don't want to be part of the conversation yourself, it looks really strange for you to stick around to try to tell people what they should or shouldn't say in the conversation.

Bow out if you wish. Or stay and be constructive. Staying and not being constructive is maybe not a great move.

 

[Scott Christian]

You aren't the only one to make an effort to turn this into a binary stormwind-like split where either people are real ROLEplayers who are going to find their oem uses for gold now that they are freed from needing to have needs for gold and magic items disrupt their freeform R O L E roleplay or they are dirty ROLLplayers who are ignoring the beauty because they are incapable of roleplay....

The two are not some kind of not a binary/boolean thing but by so completely designing against the need 5e tries to make it into one but only to one side.it is that effort to excise one path of the fork that makes pointing at the other half irrelevant

I am not blind to the fact that ROLEPLAYING exists in all pillars of play, and a player can ROLEPLAY in any situation, including combat and exploration. I am not turning it into a binary argument. I even mentioned above, in response to Lanefan, "I couldn't put my finger on it, which is why I mentioned pillars of play."

So I will state this claim clearly: I do not believe that dungeon delvers are incapable of roleplay.

That said, if a DM cannot find any reason to institute gold from a character's actions outside of buying potions and magic items, then I am going to say that character is a static character. That is not a bad thing. Some of my favorite characters have been static. But to have an entire group of static characters is surprising. Rare even. Like having an entire player group that only want to play clerics.

If not that, then the DM should respond to the player and put a little effort into that part of play.