D&D 5E (2024) Gold & Other Treasure (Can we get off the treadmill?)

[Micah Sweet]

In other words... "Look at all the stuff my DM homebrewed for us." Or effectively throwing it in the trash.

Yes, the problem is solvable, but DMs shouldn't have to be the ones to make things up.

Maybe look beyond WotC for those answers? Plenty of 3pp have come up with ways to spend gold.

 

[tetrasodium]

Maybe look beyond WotC for those answers? Plenty of 3pp have come up with ways to spend gold.

That is not relevant to 5e itself. We are talking about the game wotc sells not what the GM &3pp could hypothetically homebrew as bolt ons in order to obscure a deliberately designed void in the ruleset.

 

[Micah Sweet]

That is not relevant to 5e itself. We are talking about the game wotc sells not what the GM &3pp could hypothetically homebrew as bolt ons in order to obscure a deliberately designed void in the ruleset.

Fair enough. It seemed like a topic with more nuance. I'll bow out then since I have no interest in a discussion focused exclusively on WotC 5e.

 

[Mephista]

The exact opposite. We are literally playing Candlekeep, a published adventure. I am sure the DM is doing some homebrew, but the players also do some of that work.

The opposite is "WotC creating opportunities for gold spending in the core books" as opposed to "tables having to figure this out themselves." Not "the players figured out their own gold sinks" because, fundamentally, the DM is responsible for how the world responds to players; the two are fundamentally interrelated.

If you want to throw money at charitable causes, great, good for you. But it doesn't matter to stories unless the DM makes it matter. They're either going to ignore the gold spending (at which point, its no different than flushing it down a toilet), or have to spend some amount of energy weaving it into the story (even if its as an occasional throwaway comment). Spend it on luxury? Again, it doesn't matter unless the DM goes out of their way to make a story about it - most adventures simply don't care, as you simply spend a few nights, and then continue the adventure, many of which are away from civilizations.

The fundamental problem with gold in 5e is that, other than beginning gear (including plate armor), the only real costs are certain spells (or scribing a wizard grimoire) requiring expensive materials. Renting out inn rooms isn't really a noticable drain, and fundamentally it doesn't really matter how much you spend on it - or, hells, don't spend any and live in a tent - unless the DM goes out of their way to make it matter.

So long as the game gives out treasure (as outlined in the DMG) and relies on the DM/players to figure out what to do with it, there's a fundamental issue.

My bullet points describe D&D. Currying favor, helping others, buying equipment, using coin to set things right/keeping things safe, etc. That is D&D.

No, no it is not D&D. Not for everyone. Nor, I imagine, a good swath of the player base. D&D is fundamentally a game about exploring dungeons (often as a quest), fighting monsters. Helping people through acomplishing quests is a fair argument to make. But currying favor? Helping through spending coin? Not so much. Indeed, its usually the opposite - adventurers generally expect to GET coin or random magic knick-nacks as a reward for the quest, not the opposite. Charity is usually low on the list of adventurer-things-to-do.

Buying equipment? You can only buy starting equipment - 5e has made it clear that, by default, magic items (ie higher level equipment) is generally not for sale. And the DM has to effectively figure out the prices on their own (or go to DMguild) should they decide to sell anything. So, this is a part of D&D that... 5e flat out denies as part of the game.

 

[Mephista]

Maybe look beyond WotC for those answers? Plenty of 3pp have come up with ways to spend gold.

That's the thing. I SHOULDN'T HAVE TO LOOK BEYOND WOTC FOR THAT. Its their job to provide tools for storytelling. I'm paying THEM real money to do it.

That's not only a cop out, its also giving DMs more homework to do, which is not good.

 

[payn]

That's the thing. I SHOULDN'T HAVE TO LOOK BEYOND WOTC FOR THAT. Its their job to provide tools for storytelling. I'm paying THEM real money to do it.

That's not only a cop out, its also giving DMs more homework to do, which is not good.

You require a poorly functioning economic model for storytelling?

 

[tetrasodium]

You require a poorly functioning economic model for storytelling?

Let's say that the GM builds "an economic model" or uses a 3pp bolt on... Then what need does it fill?

that's a serious question that is not filled by empty gestures of freeform roleplaying like story or whatever. Wotc has still deliberately walled off a need for tyat boltto fill by designing everything around the assumption of starting gear for the entire campaign.

Any resulting bolt on needs to also tear down that wall and rebuild a need for the bolt on to fill. It's like checking and properly inflating the tires on a car to maximize fuel economy after replacing the engine compartment with concrete pour.

 

[payn]

Let's say that the GM builds "an economic model" or uses a 3pp bolt on... Then what need does it fill?

that's a serious question that is not filled by empty gestures of freeform roleplaying like story or whatever. Wotc has still deliberately walled off a need for tyat boltto fill by designing everything around the assumption of starting gear for the entire campaign.

Any resulting bolt on needs to also tear down that wall and rebuild a need for the bolt on to fill. It's like checking and properly inflating the tires on a car to maximize fuel economy after replacing the engine compartment with concrete pour.

More like adding a spoiler to a vehicle. Its an aesthetic head fake to performance. Car still runs perfectly fine without it.

 

[CapnZapp]

I just don't see this as true.

You make it sound as if gold is only used for your character, and it isn't. It is used for so much more. Here are just some examples:

• Gold can be used to curry favor from people in high places. Heck, to curry favor from a demon, devil, or arch angel, they might require 25,000 gold worth of (fill in the blank). I know very few groups that have that kind of gold.
• For the good group members, gold can be used to help out the town. They may be supporting the orphanage from which they grew up, the town or clan from which they came, or their parents and relative's farms. That might require a large amount of gold.
• I know you said most don't do the keep thing, but quite a few do. This is especially true for the character the character that is protecting something they have grown to care for: a town, a piece of nature, a portal to a place near or dear to their heart, or a portal to a very bad place they don't want reopened.
• Gold can be used for luxury living. If your group is tenth level and living in (fill in the blank big city), they want a very secure place for those magic items. They aren't going to trapse around with their special armor and 5,000 gold enchanted earrings and magic carpet each time they leave their place. So they will need a place that is safe, secure, and protected. That requires gold.
• Gold can be used for research. Go to Candlekeep to find (and need) a specific book; it's like going to Tiffany's and looking in their unique collector's case. This book might be needed for them to take the next step in their quest.
• Gold is often pooled as well. Sometimes, a single player in the group needs something specific for their build. And that something isn't always cheap. If you have a cooperative group, they will probably pitch in.
• Right now, my character's personality trait is: "I always have a plan for when things go wrong." He is a raging fighter that has come to look at the group as a family he never had. They are pretty high level (10), and have been near death quite a few times. Like real TPKs. He feels their luck can't last forever, so he has been acquiring and spending all the unused adventuring money on establishing a tavern as a business - so if he dies, they can stop this dangerous exploration stuff and retire to run a business. This has cost him a lot of money. (I write this to show how easily it is to establish this type of play into the game. Take a trait, flaw, bond, etc. and use it to establish part of the game. We have had several RP interactions based around that tavern: setting up a seafood vendor, getting the thieves' guild to deliver a piano, trying to get the deed, and hiring construction/artists to make it look how we wanted. All this RP was probably a drop in the bucket compared to play time, but it helped the economy of the game and flesh out some of our characters.)
• Gold can buy potions to help the group. Heck, we just paid 500 gold for a potion of resist elements. 500 gold! That was a third of one character's net worth!

No offense, but this list could go on and on. So, it feels disingenuous to keep complaining with all the suggestions people have given. It is a problem that clearly can be solved. And not only solved, but seamlessly worked into the game's RP, exploration, and combat pillars. The fact that your table can't seem to accomplish it says more about your playstyle, and not so much about the game.

One last suggestion: If your playstyle doesn't match the gold/economy, just limit the gold. That's it. Cut all gold your group gets in half or quarters.

Why did you omit magic items from your list?

• purchase magic items giving out bonuses to attacks, damage, saves, AC, skills etc for gold

All your items are valid.

None of them present a good reason they should be the ONLY ones.

If your group simply likes to walk from dungeon to dungeon, never doing research or bribing kings et cetera, the game used to cater to your play style as well, giving you too a valid way of spending your gold.

Now it doesn't. That's WotC's fault.

 

[Chaosmancer]

Reading through this thread, and thinking about many of my recent games... I wonder about something.

People keep making a statement, and it is a statement that has been made for a long time, "DnD is a game about killing things and taking their stuff, so you can kill more powerful things and take their stuff."

...

Is it though?

Let me throw down a handful of recent/current characters of mine to illustrate my point.

1) Elf Barbarian: Their goal is to kill a necromancer who defiled a sacred grove and experimented on a sacred dryad. We've been in a few combats, they have only ever once "looted" anything, and that was when we killed a bunch of magical wolves, and as a hunter they skinned and prepped the wolves to not be wasteful. They didn't even want to sell the pelts and meat, because they don't agree with capitalism, coming from a society built on more egalitarian principles. They want to kill things, but they do so to protect the area or accomplish goals, not for the stuff those things have. And getting gear to be more powerful is something I've mentioned is going to be a struggle for this character and their intentions.

2) Half-Elf Druid. Goal was to find a worthy Mistress to serve, after being banished from the Feywild for a completed contract. Played this character for years. They never really desired treasure. In fact, I remember clearly an event where they had accidentally insulted another character, and gave 900 gp to the party rogue so they could get an apology gift for them. Now, as a player, I did end up requesting some specific loot, to shore up some weaknesses in the druid spellcasting, and the character WAS pursuing a specific magical item to replicate fey glamour, but they really only killed things because those things attacked them, and they only really took treasure because why not. It wasn't a motivator for them.

3) Human Warlock. Goal was to rebuild society after the apocalypse. They were a character who was constantly seeking goods and items... to bring back to their community and help people survive in an upended world. Due to their pact, they needed wealth of a certain status (they were in a marriage pact) but they didn't care about money or loot for their own personal needs. It was just the tool to get them what they really wanted, a rebuilt society and fulfilling their pact so that their community had the backing of powerful beings to protect them.

4) Harengon Paladin. Goal was to rebuild the guild he inherited and protect the people of the city. Again, loot wasn't a motivator, really. He took jobs for money because he was rebuilding a business, but that business was also just a tool to do more good in the city, and to honor the man who left it to him in their Will.

But okay, maybe I'm just the weird one, right? After all, I'm sure a lot of people will say "but MY character is motivated by wealth and loot to get stronger to get more wealth and loot!" So, how about some of the PCs I've DM'd for?

1) Kobold Sorcerer. Goal is to build their own tribe. They actually do almost fit the definition. They are money focused, and they want to get stronger to defeat the dragon that cast them out... but they also are far more motivated by the goal of building a tribe and rising to their proper status as a God.

2) Various characters in a human only campaign. Goal was to accomplish their mission. They were a military unit sent to investigate an undead plague and see if they could stop it. None of them really cared about money or loot.


Now, I'm sure someone is thinking "but if I don't give rewards to my players, they are going to get upset!" And this is true. I've experienced it myself. Go too long without rewarding the player's for their efforts, and they start getting annoyed. But that isn't because they are playing with the purpose of getting loot to get stronger to get better loot, it is more accurately because they've done a lot of work, and gotten no reward. And I think this is where the actual problem is laying.

See, I can't think of anyone I know who would be happy getting gold and then having to use that gold to level up. There is a reason the game moved away from that model, after all. It feels more like a punishment to implement that rule, rather than a reward. And the reason players get unsatisfied with having gold and nothing to spend it on, is because gold is given as their reward for their work... but they can't utilize it. And a reward that doesn't get used is useless, and therefore it feels like they aren't actually getting rewarded.

I know this seems like I'm just arriving back at the same place, but I think the angle here is important. I don't think the question truly is "what can I do to make them spend their gold" but instead "how can I reward my players for accomplishing tasks in the game?" Because, if you make gold useful for increasing what they can do, or accomplishing their real goals, then it will feel like a reward and you've succeeded. But if you instead reward them with OTHER things, then you don't need to worry as much about giving them gold, because they don't usually actually want gold. They want a reward, gold is just an easy, mindless reward we can give out that takes minimal effort.