D&D 5E (2024) Gold & Other Treasure (Can we get off the treadmill?)

[MGibster]

It works just fine, it's just not what everyone wants.

We're never going to find something everyone wants.

 

[Micah Sweet]

Its only a big failing in design if your assumption is true, but you could easily assume otherwise that the treasure is not the important thing in the game from the perspective of the designers and they did actually succeed in their design goals (to make it less important).

And yet continued to provide large amounts of it. That's at least a failure of coherency.

 

[Retros_x]

We don't need to make any "assumptions" anything wotc loved to brag about it being done deliberately over the last several years as if there are no problems with those design choices.

Where did WotC "bragged" that money is the most important thing in 5e? Because that is what the post I quoted claimed it to be, which I call an assumption because I can not recall reading any text in 5e where it was stated that money is the most important thing in the game, not even implicitly.

And yet continued to provide large amounts of it. That's at least a failure of coherency.

No, if money would be scarce it would be important again. Providing large amounts make it unimportant without removing it completely.

 

[TheSword]

I don’t know if it’s been mentioned but Eventyr Games book on magic item selling (with rational pricing and details for how magic item sales can be handled in-game) is very good. I found it a bit of staple and much better than randomising a price between 2,000 and 12,000 gp.

I think they have had a good stab at that hard work that @CapnZapp talked about. Worth the download price just for pricing guide.

Added the link for anyone interested.

Wanderer's Guide to Merchants & Magic Bundle (Hardcover + PDF)

Magic Items Made Easy Wanderer's Guide to Merchants & Magic Hardcover + PDF + Digital Assets! All adventurers will eventually want to buy, sell, and trade magic items. In 5E, that's easier said than done – and usually requires hours of tedious preparation for the DM. Because what are the rules...

eventyrgames.store

 

[tetrasodium]

Where did WotC "bragged" that money is the most important thing in 5e? Because that is what the post I quoted claimed it to be, which I call an assumption because I can not recall reading any text in 5e where it was stated that money is the most important thing in the game, not even implicitly.

No, if money would be scarce it would be important again. Providing large amounts make it unimportant without removing it completely.

No that is half of the post you quoted, the rest was about how wotc left nowhere to spend said money. Are you seriously asking me to find one of the many videos of Crawford saying something along the lines of how they designed 5e so you aren't required to use magic items/feats/etc and how the game will work just fine without any problems when you do that simply because you somehow don't believe it?
at it's core d&d is a game that boils down to kicking in the door in order to kill things so you can take their stuff in order to improve enough to kick in bigger doors and kill bigger badder things that have more & better stuff. 5e however decided that it could change that simply by not bothering to adequately support a key part of that would make it into a game about something else with even less support within the system.

 

[payn]

No they is half of the post you quoted, the rest was about how wotc left nowhere to spend said moneyr. Are you seriously asking me to find one of the many videos of Crawford saying something along the lines of how they designed 5e so you aren't required to use magic items/feats/etc and how the game will work just fine without any problems when you do that simply because you somehow don't believe it?
at it's core d&d is a game that boils down to kicking in the door in order to kill things so you can take their stuff in order to improve enough to kick in bigger doors and kill bigger badder things that have more & better stuff. 5e however decided that it could change that simply by not bothering to adequately support a key part of that would make it into a game about something else with even less support within the system.

… And amen to that!

 

[Stormonu]

just have magic items for sale and it's all good.

Hell no. That’s the fastest way to watch a campaign go down the drain short of handing out a deck of many things.

 

[Lanefan]

Hell no. That’s the fastest way to watch a campaign go down the drain short of handing out a deck of many things.

And how does pricing magic items cause a campaign to go down the drain?

Note here this is just about item pricing, for use when trying to equalize treasury shares within the party or for when the DM needs to know something's value (e.g. someone wants to pay to get one made). The existence of such a price list does not and should not imply player-side always-on availability to buy or make any items they can afford, a la 3e (which took this way over the top IMO).

What's for sale has to be randomized and limited.

Also, in my current campaign there's been (four? five? six? I've lost count now!) Decks of Many Things or equivalents, and it's still chuggin' along 15 years in.

 

[M_Natas]

The mechanics have already been linked up, but for it to actually work in play at the table it takes a somewhat different mindset from both sides of the gm screen & fate does a great job talking about the hows & whys behind that mindset. I don't think that it could be easily grafted onto d&d and still have it feel like d&d without a lot of other changes but here are some good quotes from the fate core book about that mindset

Spoiler

Skills and Specific Measurements
Looking over the skill descriptions, you might notice that there are a few
places where we give an abstraction for something that in real life depends
on precise measurement. Physique and Resources are strong examples—
many people who are into strength training have some idea of how much
weight they can dead lift, and people spend specific amounts of money
from a finite pool when they buy things.
So how much can a character with Great (+4) Physique bench press? How
much can a character with Fair (+2) Resources spend before going broke?
The truth is, we have no idea, and we’re reluctant to pursue a specific
answer.
Though it may seem counter-intuitive, we find that creating minutiae
like that detracts from the verisimilitude of the game in play. As soon as
you establish a detail like, “Great Physique can dead lift a car for five sec-
onds,” then you’re cutting out a lot of the variability that real life allows.
Adrenaline and other factors allow people to reach beyond their normal
physical limits or fall short of them—you can’t factor every one of those
things in without having it take up a large amount of focus at the table.
It becomes a thing for people to discuss and even argue about, rather than
participating in the scene.
It’s also boring. If you decide that a Fair (+2) Resources can buy anything
that’s 200 gold pieces or less, then you’ve removed a great deal of potential
for tension and drama. Suddenly, every time you have a Resources-based
problem, it’s going to hinge on the question of whether or not the cost is
200 gold pieces, rather than whatever the point of the scene is. It also turns
everything into a simple pass/fail situation, which means you don’t really
have a good reason to roll the skill at all. And again, this is not realistic—
when people spend money, it’s not about the raw dollar amount as much as
it is a question of what someone can presently afford.
Remember, a skill roll is a narrative tool, meant to answer the following
question: “Can I solve X problem using Y means, right now?” When you
get an unexpected result, use your sense of realism and drama to explain and
justify it, using our guidelines above. “Oh, you failed that Resources roll to
bribe the guard? Guess you spent just a bit more at the tavern last night than
you thought... wait, why is your belt pouch gone? And who’s that shady
character walking a little too quickly just past the line of guards? Did he just
wink at you? That bastard... now what do you do?”


LiMiting resources
if someone is using the Resources skill a bit too often, or you just
want to represent how continually tapping into your source of
wealth provides diminishing returns, you can try one of the follow-
ing ideas:
• any time a character succeeds at a Resources roll, but doesn’t
succeed with style, give them a situation aspect that reflects
their temporary loss of wealth, like Thin Wallet or Strapped for
Cash. if it happens again, just rename the aspect as something
worse—Strapped for Cash becomes Dead Broke, Dead Broke
becomes Debt to Creditors. the aspect is not a consequence,
but it should make good compel fodder for characters who are
shopping until they drop. it can go away if the character takes a
break from spending cash, or at the end of the session.
• every time the character succeeds at a Resources roll, decrease
the skill by one level for the remainder of that session. if they
succeed at a Resources roll at mediocre (+0), they can no longer
make any Resources rolls that session.
if you really want to get crazy, you can make finances a category
of conflict and give each character a wealth stress track, giving them
extra stress boxes for having a high Resources, but we don’t recom-
mend going that far unless you plan on making material wealth a
major part of your game.

The 200gp explainer really drives the pros & cons home too I think.

But the 200gp explainer is ... bad.
Like, I don't like this abstraction wealth system, but using the 200gp example just makes the abstract wealth system even worse. But just tracking GP would solve the problems they implemented with the abstract wealth system with 200gp limit.

And now with the Broke conditions they are trying to fix problems that just counting GP just wouldn't have.

I think the only ever time such an abstract wealth system has any benefits over counting GP is, if the players can't do simple subtraction and addition.

 

[M_Natas]

So the your wealth level would split everything into 3 categories. I’ll give an example of a Comfortable wealth level.

- Things you can buy as a matter of course: A regular inn stay, a good meal, any items worth 5gp or less.

- Things there is a chance you can buy: A horse, a suit of chainmail - with a successful wealth check.

- Things you can’t buy at that wealth level. Full plate armour.

Expensive things outside your purchasing power like a castle might require maintaining a certain wealth level for a period, or agreeing to a drop in wealth for an agreed time.

This is now getting way more complicated than just counting gold pieces ...