D&D 5E (2024) Gold & Other Treasure (Can we get off the treadmill?)

[payn]

It really, really can vary. It takes some work, but you absolutely can make a workable economy in D&D type games. It's been done

No, it hasn’t.

To be frank, the "adventure only" style you're advocating would bore me to tears quite quickly. It encourages treating the setting like the flavor text of a board game, and setting is very, very important to my enjoyment of RPGs.

Another obtuse take on adventure focused gaming. I’m not sure what adventures even entail that you think so one dimensionally on them.

 

[tetrasodium]

You're not wrong, but short of a new game that's what you gotta do if you want what WotC deemed "optional" to be a significant part of the game.

That's not reasonable shifting responsibility onto the GM for the design choices involved just to absolve wotc of their own part in trying to have it both ways in too many areas. It wasn't that far back that the thread was discussing how wotc making that choice being an atrocious one.

 

[Micah Sweet]

No, it hasn’t.

Just like that huh? You have perfect knowledge of all D&D-like games?

 

[Micah Sweet]

That's not reasonable shifting responsibility onto the GM for the design choices involved just to absolve wotc of their own part in trying to have it both ways in too many areas. It wasn't that far back that the thread was discussing how wotc making that choice being an atrocious one.

It was a bad choice, for you and for me. But they're not going to choose differently, so why fight them? Change the rules if you don't like them.

 

[Lanefan]

The mechanics have already been linked up, but for it to actually work in play at the table it takes a somewhat different mindset from both sides of the gm screen & fate does a great job talking about the hows & whys behind that mindset. I don't think that it could be easily grafted onto d&d and still have it feel like d&d without a lot of other changes but here are some good quotes from the fate core book about that mindset

Spoiler

Skills and Specific Measurements
Looking over the skill descriptions, you might notice that there are a few
places where we give an abstraction for something that in real life depends
on precise measurement. Physique and Resources are strong examples—
many people who are into strength training have some idea of how much
weight they can dead lift, and people spend specific amounts of money
from a finite pool when they buy things.
So how much can a character with Great (+4) Physique bench press? How
much can a character with Fair (+2) Resources spend before going broke?
The truth is, we have no idea, and we’re reluctant to pursue a specific
answer.
Though it may seem counter-intuitive, we find that creating minutiae
like that detracts from the verisimilitude of the game in play. As soon as
you establish a detail like, “Great Physique can dead lift a car for five sec-
onds,” then you’re cutting out a lot of the variability that real life allows.
Adrenaline and other factors allow people to reach beyond their normal
physical limits or fall short of them—you can’t factor every one of those
things in without having it take up a large amount of focus at the table.
It becomes a thing for people to discuss and even argue about, rather than
participating in the scene.
It’s also boring. If you decide that a Fair (+2) Resources can buy anything
that’s 200 gold pieces or less, then you’ve removed a great deal of potential
for tension and drama. Suddenly, every time you have a Resources-based
problem, it’s going to hinge on the question of whether or not the cost is
200 gold pieces, rather than whatever the point of the scene is. It also turns
everything into a simple pass/fail situation, which means you don’t really
have a good reason to roll the skill at all. And again, this is not realistic—
when people spend money, it’s not about the raw dollar amount as much as
it is a question of what someone can presently afford.
Remember, a skill roll is a narrative tool, meant to answer the following
question: “Can I solve X problem using Y means, right now?” When you
get an unexpected result, use your sense of realism and drama to explain and
justify it, using our guidelines above. “Oh, you failed that Resources roll to
bribe the guard? Guess you spent just a bit more at the tavern last night than
you thought... wait, why is your belt pouch gone? And who’s that shady
character walking a little too quickly just past the line of guards? Did he just
wink at you? That bastard... now what do you do?”


LiMiting resources
if someone is using the Resources skill a bit too often, or you just
want to represent how continually tapping into your source of
wealth provides diminishing returns, you can try one of the follow-
ing ideas:
• any time a character succeeds at a Resources roll, but doesn’t
succeed with style, give them a situation aspect that reflects
their temporary loss of wealth, like Thin Wallet or Strapped for
Cash. if it happens again, just rename the aspect as something
worse—Strapped for Cash becomes Dead Broke, Dead Broke
becomes Debt to Creditors. the aspect is not a consequence,
but it should make good compel fodder for characters who are
shopping until they drop. it can go away if the character takes a
break from spending cash, or at the end of the session.
• every time the character succeeds at a Resources roll, decrease
the skill by one level for the remainder of that session. if they
succeed at a Resources roll at mediocre (+0), they can no longer
make any Resources rolls that session.
if you really want to get crazy, you can make finances a category
of conflict and give each character a wealth stress track, giving them
extra stress boxes for having a high Resources, but we don’t recom-
mend going that far unless you plan on making material wealth a
major part of your game.

The 200gp explainer really drives the pros & cons home too I think.

Yeah, looking at that and the piece @Alzrius linked to, I can't see how this can function in a situation where characters have long-term goals for which they want to save up. For day-to-day adventuring, sure, or for a short or one-off campaign; but not for campaigns that go on for a long time and-or where characters put their wealth into non-adventuring projects.

 

[Lanefan]

I do it in the social and exploration pillar. Its not just dungeon delving and killing things or character development.

Character development can happen in the field, sure...but only to a limited extent. Some examples of things you can't (usually) do while in the field:

--- buy or build a home for yourself and-or your family
--- interact with your family and-or non-adventuring friends in any meaningful way
--- buy or build a temple, laboratory, monastery, stronghold, etc. (though admittedly you could just take over an adventuring site and claim it for your own)
--- gain and-or use political influence in town, or run for office
--- open a school or training ground for less-experienced adventurers and-or commoners
--- invent, research, and design a new spell
--- invent and construct (or commission someone else to construct) a new never-before-seen magic item
--- get married and-or have a child and-or raise a child
--- party your furry little face off and maybe get yourself arrested

Other than the second one, everything on that list carries costs; and all of them (maybe other than getting married) are purely downtime activities.

Im not playing to simulate real life.

I am, though with fantastical elements attached. I want the fantasy world to, ideally, be as real as this one, warts and all.

 

[TheSword]

So how does this work in practice? More specifically:

If a character is "wealth level" X does that mean said character can afford a certain lifestyle for a certain period of time?
Is every character just assumed to be living that lifestyle?
What if a character wants to live below its wealth level?
Corollary to the last: what if a character wants to save up long-term for something big e.g. a castle? How does the amount of savings get tracked over time with any accuracy, or is it just hand-waved?
How many assumptions does this make as to how (and-or how often) the party divide their treasure?

So the your wealth level would split everything into 3 categories. I’ll give an example of a Comfortable wealth level.

- Things you can buy as a matter of course: A regular inn stay, a good meal, any items worth 5gp or less.

- Things there is a chance you can buy: A horse, a suit of chainmail - with a successful wealth check.

- Things you can’t buy at that wealth level. Full plate armour.

Expensive things outside your purchasing power like a castle might require maintaining a certain wealth level for a period, or agreeing to a drop in wealth for an agreed time.

 

[Mephista]

Character development can happen in the field, sure...but only to a limited extent. Some examples of things you can't (usually) do while in the field:

--- buy or build a home for yourself and-or your family
--- interact with your family and-or non-adventuring friends in any meaningful way
--- buy or build a temple, laboratory, monastery, stronghold, etc. (though admittedly you could just take over an adventuring site and claim it for your own)
--- gain and-or use political influence in town, or run for office
--- open a school or training ground for less-experienced adventurers and-or commoners
--- invent, research, and design a new spell
--- invent and construct (or commission someone else to construct) a new never-before-seen magic item
--- get married and-or have a child and-or raise a child
--- party your furry little face off and maybe get yourself arrested

Other than the second one, everything on that list carries costs; and all of them (maybe other than getting married) are purely downtime activities.

I am, though with fantastical elements attached. I want the fantasy world to, ideally, be as real as this one, warts and all.

I once was part of a 3e game where we just... spent a couple of game days just building a town for survivors we met. Not exactly downtime, since we kinda paused our adventure in the middle off a fforest to do this. We worked out logistics, ffood supply, defenses, everything we could think of to get the town up and running. Spent our own ffunds.

So.... this kind off thing does randomly happen in the ffield. Its not common, but there's nothing stopping us either iff we so choose. The main limiting factor is that most adventures take place outside of cities instead of in them. In a campaign centered around a single city? That changes everything.

There's this kind of... assumption that cities are downtime/safety while the wilderness and ruins are purely adventure time. Which, okay, fair to make. But that's a function off story, rather than the game itself. In more political / espionage type games, these are all things done outside of downtime.

 

[payn]

Character development can happen in the field, sure...but only to a limited extent. Some examples of things you can't (usually) do while in the field:

--- buy or build a home for yourself and-or your family
--- interact with your family and-or non-adventuring friends in any meaningful way
--- buy or build a temple, laboratory, monastery, stronghold, etc. (though admittedly you could just take over an adventuring site and claim it for your own)
--- gain and-or use political influence in town, or run for office
--- open a school or training ground for less-experienced adventurers and-or commoners
--- invent, research, and design a new spell
--- invent and construct (or commission someone else to construct) a new never-before-seen magic item
--- get married and-or have a child and-or raise a child
--- party your furry little face off and maybe get yourself arrested

Other than the second one, everything on that list carries costs; and all of them (maybe other than getting married) are purely downtime activities.

I am, though with fantastical elements attached. I want the fantasy world to, ideally, be as real as this one, warts and all.

All this just tells me you don't have much experience with adventure path style of play.

 

[CapnZapp]

I wasn't disagreeing in the post you quoted and agree with all of this

Okay then