D&D 5E (2024) Gold & Other Treasure (Can we get off the treadmill?)

[Horwath]

So the your wealth level would split everything into 3 categories. I’ll give an example of a Comfortable wealth level.

- Things you can buy as a matter of course: A regular inn stay, a good meal, any items worth 5gp or less.

- Things there is a chance you can buy: A horse, a suit of chainmail - with a successful wealth check.

- Things you can’t buy at that wealth level. Full plate armour.

Expensive things outside your purchasing power like a castle might require maintaining a certain wealth level for a period, or agreeing to a drop in wealth for an agreed time.

There is a reason that humanity invented money.

it's simple and it works.

no need to complicate a system that works for all these centuries.

Yes, there should be availability factor and "clearance level", just like now you cannot buy nuclear weapons no matter how rich you are(I hope!).

I see Legendary items and Artifacts in that WMD category for no sale.
The rest? If you accumulate gold and there is a sufficient market, it should be available.
FFS, you can now buy a tank.

 

[TheSword]

This is now getting way more complicated than just counting gold pieces ...

Only because it’s new to you. But it’s certainly not a system for everyone.

It won’t suit a lot of adventuring types but I know for our games, money doesn’t mean a huge amount. Most expenses get handwaved.

It’s just a system to represent abstract wealth without being broken based on what’s reasonable. No need to keep track of coins to tip a barman or bribe a guard.

 

[MGibster]

Also, in my current campaign there's been (four? five? six? I've lost count now!) Decks of Many Things or equivalents, and it's still chuggin' along 15 years in.

You've got my respect, sir. The only time I dump a Deck of Many Things into my campaign is when I stop caring. It has literally ruined every campaign I've put it in.

 

[CapnZapp]

The game's math is built around the assumptions that PCs will get zero magic items between levels 1 and 20. Balance in 5E, such as it is, is predicated on this.

Not a good argument to not provide magic item pricing.

The decision point should be "how much gold to award the party".
Not "I can hand out as much gold as I like since it's all functionally useless anyway unless I do the hard work myself".

Compare to 4E

No thanks. Nothing about 4E is relevant to 5E, and I see no point whatsoever to discuss that edition.

I love butterscotch pudding, but I don't get upset that chocolate pudding isn't butterscotchy enough. I just go and eat butterscotch pudding.

If what you're saying is that you cannot ever ask for something to become better, I vehemently disagree. You should definitely be able to tell your pudding vendor their product isn't butterscotchy enough, especially since you pay good money for it.

You should definitely be able to do this if your pudding vendor used to put butterscotch into their chocolate pudding, but suddenly decided it was hard and just stopped.

And you should ABSOLUTELY do this if the vendor then claimed "you don't need any butterscotch in your pudding" in a brazen attempt to justify their lesser product.

---

I absolutely would like to take this opportunity to point out that the lack of reasonable (as opposed to the "pluck numbers out of thin air" non-solution that WotC tries to peddle) guidance on how to "turn gold into combat ability" is perhaps the biggest failing of 5th Edition, full stop.

That official adventures keep handing out gobs of gold while providing only useless advice to groups that want to keep adventuring (and thus have no interest in orphanage-building) is a very large irritant.

WotC definitely needs to be held accountable for this attempt at trying to both eat the cake (satisfy gamers that like getting gold) and still have it (not have to do the gruntwork in actually supporting usages of all that gold).

 

[Scott Christian]

I feel as though we're still on that treadmill except it doesn't serve the same function any longer. After a few levels, gold is no longer particularly useful in regards to improving your ability to adventure. But for some reason adventurers are still being rewarded with fat stacks of loot for adventuring. In most D&D campaigns, there's not a whole lot to siphon money off the players. We've had a few people chime in here telling us how gold has been put to use building keeps or doing other things, but I don't believe that's the norm. And if we're going to keep creating adventures where PCs get a good amount of treasure, the creators of the game need to make sure there's something to do with that gold by default.

I just don't see this as true.

You make it sound as if gold is only used for your character, and it isn't. It is used for so much more. Here are just some examples:

• Gold can be used to curry favor from people in high places. Heck, to curry favor from a demon, devil, or arch angel, they might require 25,000 gold worth of (fill in the blank). I know very few groups that have that kind of gold.
• For the good group members, gold can be used to help out the town. They may be supporting the orphanage from which they grew up, the town or clan from which they came, or their parents and relative's farms. That might require a large amount of gold.
• I know you said most don't do the keep thing, but quite a few do. This is especially true for the character the character that is protecting something they have grown to care for: a town, a piece of nature, a portal to a place near or dear to their heart, or a portal to a very bad place they don't want reopened.
• Gold can be used for luxury living. If your group is tenth level and living in (fill in the blank big city), they want a very secure place for those magic items. They aren't going to trapse around with their special armor and 5,000 gold enchanted earrings and magic carpet each time they leave their place. So they will need a place that is safe, secure, and protected. That requires gold.
• Gold can be used for research. Go to Candlekeep to find (and need) a specific book; it's like going to Tiffany's and looking in their unique collector's case. This book might be needed for them to take the next step in their quest.
• Gold is often pooled as well. Sometimes, a single player in the group needs something specific for their build. And that something isn't always cheap. If you have a cooperative group, they will probably pitch in.
• Right now, my character's personality trait is: "I always have a plan for when things go wrong." He is a raging fighter that has come to look at the group as a family he never had. They are pretty high level (10), and have been near death quite a few times. Like real TPKs. He feels their luck can't last forever, so he has been acquiring and spending all the unused adventuring money on establishing a tavern as a business - so if he dies, they can stop this dangerous exploration stuff and retire to run a business. This has cost him a lot of money. (I write this to show how easily it is to establish this type of play into the game. Take a trait, flaw, bond, etc. and use it to establish part of the game. We have had several RP interactions based around that tavern: setting up a seafood vendor, getting the thieves' guild to deliver a piano, trying to get the deed, and hiring construction/artists to make it look how we wanted. All this RP was probably a drop in the bucket compared to play time, but it helped the economy of the game and flesh out some of our characters.)
• Gold can buy potions to help the group. Heck, we just paid 500 gold for a potion of resist elements. 500 gold! That was a third of one character's net worth!

No offense, but this list could go on and on. So, it feels disingenuous to keep complaining with all the suggestions people have given. It is a problem that clearly can be solved. And not only solved, but seamlessly worked into the game's RP, exploration, and combat pillars. The fact that your table can't seem to accomplish it says more about your playstyle, and not so much about the game.

One last suggestion: If your playstyle doesn't match the gold/economy, just limit the gold. That's it. Cut all gold your group gets in half or quarters.

 

[Mephista]

I'm not sure I would say that I would say the lack of prices is the biggest failure. Though it is quite annoying, I'd have to point to other issues myself as the worst.

Personally I always found the insistence that you need to be a spellcaster to make magic weapons to be the greater failing. Even the Smithy Bastion needs a separate spellcaster to turn a masterwork into a magic weapon.

 

[tetrasodium]

I just don't see this as true.

You make it sound as if gold is only used for your character, and it isn't. It is used for so much more. Here are just some examples:

• Gold can be used to curry favor from people in high places. Heck, to curry favor from a demon, devil, or arch angel, they might require 25,000 gold worth of (fill in the blank). I know very few groups that have that kind of gold.
• For the good group members, gold can be used to help out the town. They may be supporting the orphanage from which they grew up, the town or clan from which they came, or their parents and relative's farms. That might require a large amount of gold.
• I know you said most don't do the keep thing, but quite a few do. This is especially true for the character the character that is protecting something they have grown to care for: a town, a piece of nature, a portal to a place near or dear to their heart, or a portal to a very bad place they don't want reopened.
• Gold can be used for luxury living. If your group is tenth level and living in (fill in the blank big city), they want a very secure place for those magic items. They aren't going to trapse around with their special armor and 5,000 gold enchanted earrings and magic carpet each time they leave their place. So they will need a place that is safe, secure, and protected. That requires gold.
• Gold can be used for research. Go to Candlekeep to find (and need) a specific book; it's like going to Tiffany's and looking in their unique collector's case. This book might be needed for them to take the next step in their quest.
• Gold is often pooled as well. Sometimes, a single player in the group needs something specific for their build. And that something isn't always cheap. If you have a cooperative group, they will probably pitch in.
• Right now, my character's personality trait is: "I always have a plan for when things go wrong." He is a raging fighter that has come to look at the group as a family he never had. They are pretty high level (10), and have been near death quite a few times. Like real TPKs. He feels their luck can't last forever, so he has been acquiring and spending all the unused adventuring money on establishing a tavern as a business - so if he dies, they can stop this dangerous exploration stuff and retire to run a business. This has cost him a lot of money. (I write this to show how easily it is to establish this type of play into the game. Take a trait, flaw, bond, etc. and use it to establish part of the game. We have had several RP interactions based around that tavern: setting up a seafood vendor, getting the thieves' guild to deliver a piano, trying to get the deed, and hiring construction/artists to make it look how we wanted. All this RP was probably a drop in the bucket compared to play time, but it helped the economy of the game and flesh out some of our characters.)
• Gold can buy potions to help the group. Heck, we just paid 500 gold for a potion of resist elements. 500 gold! That was a third of one character's net worth!

No offense, but this list could go on and on. So, it feels disingenuous to keep complaining with all the suggestions people have given. It is a problem that clearly can be solved. And not only solved, but seamlessly worked into the game's RP, exploration, and combat pillars. The fact that your table can't seem to accomplish it says more about your playstyle, and not so much about the game.

One last suggestion: If your playstyle doesn't match the gold/economy, just limit the gold. That's it. Cut all gold your group gets in half or quarters.

What game were you trying to describe? There are games where that kind of thing is core to gameplay, d&d is not one however. It's worth noting that most of your bullet points are things with even less support than kill things &take their stuff in order to kill bigger things who have better stuff.

Despite that however you actually included at least two points contingent on getting permanent or consumable magic items... And yet...

Here are the first few google results from my phone while laying in bed.. It's been said so many times how they tried to excise a need for one of the core components of kill things & take their stuff to kill bigger things with the first two were from one of the first couple replies to a reddit post literally asking where it was said.


Perkins said it here

https://x.com/ChrisPerkinsDnD/status/850183402808463365?s=20

Crawford said it here

https://media.wizards.com/2017/podcasts/dnd/DnDPodcast_07_06_2017.mp3

Xge page 136 says....

Spoiler

Are magic items necessary in a campaign?

The D&D game is built on he assumption that magic items appear sporadically and that they are always a boon, unless an item bears a curse. Characters and monsters are built to face each other without the help of magic items, which means that having a magic item always makes a character more powerful or versatile than a generic character of he same level. As DM, you never have to worry about awarding magic items just so the characters can keep up with the campaign threats. Magic items are truely prizes. Are the useful? Absolutely. Are they necessary? No.

I'm not looking for more

 

[Mephista]

I just don't see this as true.

You make it sound as if gold is only used for your character, and it isn't. It is used for so much more. Here are just some examples:

In other words... "Look at all the stuff my DM homebrewed for us." Or effectively throwing it in the trash.

Yes, the problem is solvable, but DMs shouldn't have to be the ones to make things up.

 

[Scott Christian]

In other words... "Look at all the stuff my DM homebrewed for us." Or effectively throwing it in the trash.

Yes, the problem is solvable, but DMs shouldn't have to be the ones to make things up.

The exact opposite. We are literally playing Candlekeep, a published adventure. I am sure the DM is doing some homebrew, but the players also do some of that work.

 

[Scott Christian]

What game were you trying to describe? There are games where that kind of thing is core to gameplay, d&d is not one however. It's worth noting that most of your bullet points are things with even less support than kill things &take their stuff in order to kill bigger things who have better stuff.

Despite that however you actually included at least two points contingent on getting permanent or consumable magic items... And yet...

Here are the first few google results from my phone while laying in bed.. It's been said so many times how they tried to excise a need for one of the core components of kill things & take their stuff to kill bigger things with the first two were from one of the first couple replies to a reddit post literally asking where it was said.

My bullet points describe D&D. Currying favor, helping others, buying equipment, using coin to set things right/keeping things safe, etc. That is D&D. I am sorry you don't see it that way, and that you are stuck on the magic item bit. The magic item bit is a classic trope; get the four parts of the crown to destroy the great evil. Get the precious ring to this location and destroy it. Find this magic sword to slay the dragon. I mean, it doesn't have to be every quest, but it can certainly be a part of a larger quest, such a Drizzt trying to find that mask of alter self (or something like that) so he could walk freely through town.

Most of my bullet points point out uses for gold - in a D&D game. The fact that this thread cannot seem to either A) only equate it to magic items or B) refuse the suggestions in the DMG and PHB for playstyle baffles me.