D&D General D&D without Resource Management

[Shardstone]

The text could state that in huge letters backed up by a poke to the side of the head and players would still see the listed examples as being the complete list of available options.

Unfortunately that endeavour all too often falls under the "you can lead a horse to water..." paradigm.

Its better to lead the horse to water then do nothing and move on.

 

[Voadam]

The druid who can wildshape unlimited times.

The 3.5 Player's Hanbook II unlimited wildshape variant druids were fantastic.

 

[Shardstone]

This discussion has me thinking about two video games I've played that have a bit of an "older school" vibe to them:

Darkest Dungeon
I'm playing a lot of this at the moment. For those unfamiliar with it, it's a tactical dungeon-crawler with intricate 2D-positional combat, a dungeon-exploration gameplay layer, and a strategic roster-and-town-management gameplay layer, and the potential for very high lethality. (My first complete playthrough had a 40% mortality rate for my roster.)

In Darkest Dungeon, the characters can have up to 7 combat skills, only 4 of which are accessible at any given time. Most of these skills are usable at will, though some more powerful ones are usable a limited number of times per combat.

Overall, Darkest Dungeon leans almost entirely into at-will abilities, where the restrictions are action economy, positional considerations, and situational considerations, with the few exceptions noted.

The Iron Oath
This was in early access when I played it, so I don't really know how it's updated since.

Anyway, this has very similar combat-dungeon-overworld gameplay, but is a bit different. The characters have a few at-will abilities, but their core combat skills have a limited number of "per-day" uses (really "per dungeon" uses), with, if I recall correctly, one or two chances to recover some uses by resting in the dungeon. I daresay that this game actually handles limited-per-day ability usage better than D&D does, though perhaps in part because it's a video game - though probably also because characters don't get so many ability uses (as D&D spellcasters get spell slots) that they break the resource attrition model, and the abilities aren't so much more powerful than at-will ones that you "feel bad" using them.

It's a bit closer to D&D than is Darkest Dungeon in this respect. Certainly it leans more into limited-use abilities.

I don't know if these musings are at all useful, but maybe!

Video game innovations really is something that TTRPGs need to look into more IMO. There's a reason why games have moved closer to a "smaller pool of moves but most moves are at-will." People are playing the game to interact with the rules of the game. You don't need rules to make things up or play pretend. And there is only a certain subset of players who enjoy a huge pool of options but only able to use a finite number of those options per day. It also leads to edge-case design and wasted spells. For example, a spell like Jump would better serve the game as a way to exert yourself with HD to increase your jumping length.

But I won't argue popular appeal. I'll only argue my stance. If I want to play a sorcerer who manipulates aspects of my spells, I want to do that a lot. I'm picking the sorcerer for both the flavor and narrative and because the mechanics let me feel like I'm doing that narrative in the game. If I can only use metamagic a couple times per day, my character is a lot less mechanically interesting or engaging. I'm really not playing the game the way I signed up to play the game.

 

[Voadam]

The druid who can wildshape unlimited times.

3.5 PH II druids.

The barbarian who can rage every turn.

I always took extra raging as a feat in 3e so that I could reliably rage every fight without really worrying rages per day.

The paladin who can smite 5 times each combat.

I had house rules in 3e to give paladins and celestial/fiendish creatures an always on reduced smite and not track x/day uses. Since it was limited target like a ranger's favored enemy bonus it worked out pretty well as a targeted niche buff.

The wizard how has half their level of slots restored after every combat.

3.5 Recharge magic and 3.5 warlocks were pretty fun.

Dragons who can breath attack every other turn.

recharge breath weapons has been a thing for a while, right?

Full hit points every fight.

That has been pretty standard since 3e and cure light wound wands.

Magic items with more charges than can be regularly used.

1e 100 charge wands it is. Enough to use as a go to in combat and not the rare occasion limited shot big guns or the later x/day up front usage.

 

[payn]

Video game innovations really is something that TTRPGs need to look into more IMO. There's a reason why games have moved closer to a "smaller pool of moves but most moves are at-will." People are playing the game to interact with the rules of the game. You don't need rules to make things up or play pretend. And there is only a certain subset of players who enjoy a huge pool of options but only able to use a finite number of those options per day. It also leads to edge-case design and wasted spells. For example, a spell like Jump would better serve the game as a way to exert yourself with HD to increase your jumping length.

But I won't argue popular appeal. I'll only argue my stance. If I want to play a sorcerer who manipulates aspects of my spells, I want to do that a lot. I'm picking the sorcerer for both the flavor and narrative and because the mechanics let me feel like I'm doing that narrative in the game. If I can only use metamagic a couple times per day, my character is a lot less mechanically interesting or engaging. I'm really not playing the game the way I signed up to play the game.

This is one of the biggest divides. For some folks, the jump spell is a choice that could lead to useful utility in the adventuring field. One made against many other spells that could prove useful as well. Only having a few metamagic uses per day, means you have to chose the moments where they will give you the most impact strategically in the adventuring day. On the other hand, you have folks wondering why their caster cant just rip spells all day long? Being a caster means casting, all the time. Encounter based design gives a tactical approach to this desire. When you mix the two you get a sort of taste of both but its not satisfyingly to folks expecting one or the other.

 

[Shardstone]

This is one of the biggest divides. For some folks, the jump spell is a choice that could lead to useful utility in the adventuring field. One made against many other spells that could prove useful as well. Only having a few metamagic uses per day, means you have to chose the moments where they will give you the most impact strategically in the adventuring day. On the other hand, you have folks wondering why their caster cant just rip spells all day long? Being a caster means casting, all the time. Encounter based design gives a tactical approach to this desire. When you mix the two you get a sort of taste of both but its not satisfyingly to folks expecting one or the other.

Hmmm. I think a big thing here is, mechanics in 5e dont always fit their narratives. The sorcerer doesnt do enough of its thing imo to feel like that thing is special. It does the job enough to pass imo. But it could be a lot sharper.

 

[payn]

Hmmm. I think a big thing here is, mechanics in 5e dont always fit their narratives. The sorcerer doesnt do enough of its thing imo to feel like that thing is special. It does the job enough to pass imo. But it could be a lot sharper.

IDK, the full 5E campaign I played in my PC was a wild sorc. I felt like I had lots of interesting things to do with my metamagic pool points. The wild magic bit could have been more interesting, but it was flavorful. Though, I'm of the adventuring day mind, so as long as I have options and reosurces to manage, I enjoy my play. I dont need a particular niche or gameplay mechanic to make me feel whole.

 

[Minigiant]

.

3.5 PH II druids.

I always took extra raging as a feat in 3e so that I could reliably rage every fight without really worrying rages per day.

I had house rules in 3e to give paladins and celestial/fiendish creatures an always on reduced smite and not track x/day uses. Since it was limited target like a ranger's favored enemy bonus it worked out pretty well as a targeted niche buff.

3.5 Recharge magic and 3.5 warlocks were pretty fun.

recharge breath weapons has been a thing for a while, right?

That has been pretty standard since 3e and cure light wound wands.

1e 100 charge wands it is. Enough to use as a go to in combat and not the rare occasion limited shot big guns or the later x/day up front usage.

Overall I was thinking about feats or boons that were optional but give you extra uses of your class or race thing or activate them at the start of any combat.

Why isn't there an Extra Rage feat in 5e?

I mean a level 20 barbarian has unlimited rages. The playtest gives lets you get all you rages back.

Why couldn't a Barbarian take a feat to get 2 more rages? A monk or sorcerer take a feat to get the ability to charge temporary point they could use only next turn? A paladin getting 1 free level 1 smite every combat.

My personal preference is Yes but optional. Make it a feat or let the group choose to use the Always Ready rules where when Initiative is rolled, everyone gets one use of their X or Y or the DM offers elixirs that give the drinks the equal of a short rest. Or they can play normal.

 

[Shardstone]

.

Overall I was thinking about feats or boons that were optional but give you extra uses of your class or race thing or activate them at the start of any combat.

Why isn't there an Extra Rage feat in 5e?

I mean a level 20 barbarian has unlimited rages. The playtest gives lets you get all you rages back.

Why couldn't a Barbarian take a feat to get 2 more rages? A monk or sorcerer take a feat to get the ability to charge temporary point they could use only next turn? A paladin getting 1 free level 1 smite every combat.

My personal preference is Yes but optional. Make it a feat or let the group choose to use the Always Ready rules where when Initiative is rolled, everyone gets one use of their X or Y or the DM offers elixirs that give the drinks the equal of a short rest. Or they can play normal.

This is a good compromise.

 

[Micah Sweet]

Resource management of food and water isnt fun unless the game focuses on it more. The reason is, what am I tracking it for? Where is the interesting adventure in this?

The implied problem here is that it takes a lot of time to track those things. Tracking these things doesnt involve engaging with another player. Its just math for the sake of math.

Again, torchbearer does it well. They make tracking resources easy and tense. They make the consequences of no resources a big drive in the game.

Counting 5 different piles of beans to no effect sucks. And I have to track item uses, spell slots, and different abilities on different rest paradigms.

Resource management of food and water isn't fun for you. Many people do enjoy simulating the experience of survival, and don't just see it as, "math for the sake of math" as you say. What you seem to be trying to say is that you don't enjoy it. And that's fine.