D&D (2024) Playtest 8 Monk Discussion

[Gammadoodler]

The deflection actually becomes much less valuable after level 18, unless the monk is fighting someone who does force damage. At level 20 it would reduce the damage of an attack by about 34, which means the original attack would have had to have been for 68 HP because of the blanket resistance. But very few creatures hit for 68+ damage per attack. So the damage mitigated will actually be quite lower.

As an example, vs. the red dragon above I had the monk mitigating the bite as the biggest single hit...but that bite is only hitting for about 10 damage after resistance. So most of the deflect attack is being wasted.

This is another reason I think damage resistant is a bit of an odd ability to give the monk at level 18. It sort of clashes with deflect attack.

Right. My point was that the current phb monk also has damage resistance by level 20 (and concentration-free invisibility)..and evasion..and global save proficiency with save rerolls.

The only additional tankiness that differs at level 20 is the attribute increase and the deflect. The deflect has lost value as you mention, and the attribute increase is literally at level 20.

 

[Clint_L]

Right. My point was that the current phb monk also has damage resistance by level 20 (and concentration-free invisibility)..and evasion..and global save proficiency with save rerolls.

The only additional tankiness that differs at level 20 is the attribute increase and the deflect. The deflect has lost value as you mention, and the attribute increase is literally at level 20.

No, they also have the ability to impose disadvantage at will. And their AC is substantially higher - AC 25 vs. AC 20 is a big leap, and compounded by being able to impose disadvantage. Deflect attack is just the icing on the cake. Currently, monks do get very tanky at high levels, but this compounds it to the point where I think they will be among the best tanks in the game in most situations.

They will also have uncanny metabolism so they won't be just a one fight wonder.

It feels off to me because it seems like a significant change in their role, and potentially steps on the toes of classes that give up more in order to tank. We have a barbarian tank in our party so I will playtest more, but we are only level 9. Even at that, I think my monk is going to turn some heads in the tanking department.

 

[James Gasik]

The question is, does tanking matter in high level play? And even if Monks are the superior choice at level 18+, you still have to get to level 18. Plus, with no way to draw aggression from foes really, it's not like being hard to kill is, in of itself, an advantage. And I don't think this steps on the toes of the Paladin, as the +Cha to all saves aura is still a game changer at high levels.

 

[Kurotowa]

As an 18th level package, it strikes me as immensely better than what Monks used to get and somewhat better than most other martials used to get. In other words, it's probably exactly enough, given how far behind they were before and how much so many people said high level martials didn't get enough good stuff.

 

[Stalker0]

Very favourably, because of the ability to impose disadvantage and absorb a bunch of damage. The barbarian will have a lot more HP: 285!!! But the dragon will be doing a lot more damage, and the barbarian will be doing less...I think? If the barbarian does reckless attacks and brutal strike their DPS goes up but their survivability goes down. I'll let someone else figure out that math.

Without doing reckless attacks, our naked barbarian has a DPR of 26. Meanwhile, the dragon's DPR becomes 38. So the barbarian survives a bit longer, 8 rounds, but only does 208 damage.

Realistically, the monk should be able to solo that dragon with just a bit of gear; it's a heavier lift for the barbarian. Also, this isn't just for 1v1 fights; once damage resistance kicks in I think it likely that the monk, current 2024 version, is the best single-class tank in the game in most situations at levels 18-20. That doesn't feel right.

Maybe something like a paladin with a barbarian dip is tougher? Paladin 17, barbarian 1, fighter 2?

Let me see if I can math it out a bit. I'll use our new world tree barb as that is the easiest subclass at the moment. I think you had 12 con for your monk so I'll assume 12 dex for this barb. So 26 strength, 24 con, 12 dex. I'll assume rage and reckless attack constantly because that's what barbs do!

AC: 18 (disadvantage)
HP: 265 + 20 THP world tree bonus + 168 (relentless rage bonus, see below)
Attack: +14 (Adv)
Damage: Greatsword with Graze: 2d6+12, 8 on a miss. The weapon will also have the topple property on it from the World Tree's power, though its a bit hard to model that with just a quick white room.

Barb vs Dragon: 34.855 DPR

Dragon Attacks versus Barb (Bite + 2 claw + 3 Tail): +17 with adv (only missing on a 1).

Dragon Vs Barb: 73.725 DPR

So in terms of the barb's relentless rage, any damage that he went below 0 is a factor to the tank. If we use the claw as the standard damage for the dragon at 19 damage a swing, that means on the 3rd swing the barb went to -17 (with a 40 hp tank), so we are tanking an extra 17 damage on each relentless rage. So that's an extra 51 hp of soak. Not a perfect estimate, we might be giving the barb a bit more than its due but on the other hand we have completely ignored the topple ability which could have prone the dragon at some point and let the barb not reckless attack, so lets just go with it. Factoring in the probabilities of getting multiple relentless rages, it comes down to 168 extra hp of tank.

Under this model, barb goes 6 round with the dragon, doing 209.13 total damage.

But yeah you can see even I wag the relentless rage a bit it doesn't really change the math too much, ultimately the monk would do a lot more damage to this dragon than the barb will, and survive longer.

 

[Stalker0]

No, they also have the ability to impose disadvantage at will. And their AC is substantially higher - AC 25 vs. AC 20 is a big leap, and compounded by being able to impose disadvantage. Deflect attack is just the icing on the cake. Currently, monks do get very tanky at high levels, but this compounds it to the point where I think they will be among the best tanks in the game in most situations.

They will also have uncanny metabolism so they won't be just a one fight wonder.

It feels off to me because it seems like a significant change in their role, and potentially steps on the toes of classes that give up more in order to tank. We have a barbarian tank in our party so I will playtest more, but we are only level 9. Even at that, I think my monk is going to turn some heads in the tanking department.

I can get behind the notion that resistance to all damage might be too much even at that point (though a number of other classes get such things as well).

If the new model for the monk is the 1v1 tank (which I think is a fine niche), than a general resistance goes against that notion. Instead, you could just let the monk max the result of deflect attack (or perhaps you just let it autoblock 1 attack period regardless of damage). That keeps in the cool "I can go toe to toe with any one creature", but he's doesn't step on the toes of the barb's "I can tank the horde" motiff.

 

[Gammadoodler]

No, they also have the ability to impose disadvantage at will. And their AC is substantially higher - AC 25 vs. AC 20 is a big leap, and compounded by being able to impose disadvantage. Deflect attack is just the icing on the cake. Currently, monks do get very tanky at high levels, but this compounds it to the point where I think they will be among the best tanks in the game in most situations.

They will also have uncanny metabolism so they won't be just a one fight wonder.

It feels off to me because it seems like a significant change in their role, and potentially steps on the toes of classes that give up more in order to tank. We have a barbarian tank in our party so I will playtest more, but we are only level 9. Even at that, I think my monk is going to turn some heads in the tanking department.

They were already able to go invisible without concentration. No action required after the first. For this particular fight, dragon abilities would negate that, but it's more a peculiarity of the opponent than a reflection on the monks' relative tanking abilities between versions.

I'd certainly agree that the AC boost is a big jump, but that big jump only happens in the very last level. For every other level before that they are on par with regular nonmagical equipment.

And the level 20 Monk 1.0 was also not a "1 fight wonder". It was a short rest class. And while uncanny metabolism does provide greater assurance that a Monk can nova in 2 fights a day, they were already able to do that if reasonable resting guidelines were followed.

The entire back half of the PHB monk class design was devoted to potent damage and control mitigation abilities separated by a peculiar amount of design space devoted to ribbon abilities. With the exception of the capstone, the high level monk tanking abilities in Monk 2.0 have actually gotten less potent vs the PHB (IMO). Instead they've shifted a lot more survivability into the lower levels via deflect and greater action flexibility.

In total, the level 20 monk 2.0 is a very good tank, but outside of the AC bump, I don't think it's that much more survivable than the PHB monk for conventional use cases.

To be honest, at the highest levels, I'm also not sure that it's significantly more potent than the PHB monk. The change to stunning strike is a clear downgrade to control while the changes to grappling are an upgrade. So call that a push. Damage is up in total between the dice, stunning strike save damage, and the extra flurry, but it seems some of the subclass damage potential is being pared back (at least from way of the hand). Probably a net win but would say the jury is still out.

The thing that jumps out at me most from these changes is flexibility. At the highest levels, I don't think many of the options are significantly more powerful than what the monk had before. They're just more applicable across more of level ranges with fewer hoops to jump through.

It's kinda impressive.

 

[Chaosmancer]

Thinking about it, I'm not really sure if the Monk is getting much of a NEW power boost at level 18, compared to previously.

Previously, they could get all saves, ki to reroll; spend ki to turn invisible gaining resistance to all* damage, grant disadvantage on attacks against them, and advantage on their attacks, deflect a ranged attack, and attack three times, four if they spent ki.

So what exactly is new? Resistance to all* damage isn't new. They can no longer get the advantage on attacks, and can only grant disadvantage against them, which requires either ki or reduces them to a single attack per round. They can deflect more types of attacks now, and that is new to the monk in general, but the monk zeitgeist had this ability with the most popular 4e monk homebrew, and I have never heard of it making the monk unstoppable, though it did cost ki.

And truly, that is the only really new ability, deflecting melee attacks, and it being cheaper. A monk can now dodge and attack without spending any Ki, which is very nice, but reduces them down to a single attack. They will be difficult to take down, but their damage will suffer. They can spend ki to dodge and make three attacks, but the old monk could spend ki to dodge and make two attacks, so while it is a bit better, it is not insanely so. It really probably is just the right amount of extra juice in the tank.

 

[Stalker0]

And truly, that is the only really new ability, deflecting melee attacks, and it being cheaper. A monk can now dodge and attack without spending any Ki, which is very nice, but reduces them down to a single attack. They will be difficult to take down, but their damage will suffer. They can spend ki to dodge and make three attacks, but the old monk could spend ki to dodge and make two attacks, so while it is a bit better, it is not insanely so. It really probably is just the right amount of extra juice in the tank.

Having a melee reduction vs not having it is a big deal for a tank, and 3 attacks versus 2 is +50% dmg.

I’m not saying it’s too much but let’s not undersell it, it’s a sizable boost

 

[UngeheuerLich]

Having a melee reduction vs not having it is a big deal for a tank, and 3 attacks versus 2 is +50% dmg.

I’m not saying it’s too much but let’s not undersell it, it’s a sizable boost

It is 4 vs 5, so it is 25% increase.
Thise 4 are made with advantage, due to invisibility if not countered.
And enemies always have disadvantage, also due to invisibility.

The monk was sold under value on optimizers forums.
Even the 4e monk has a few abilities that no other subclass (or class) could replicate (throwing fireballs all day long).

I still think the new monk has way smoother progression.