D&D (2024) Playtest 8 Monk Discussion

[Mirrorrorrim]

To force people to use more feats.

Note that forum uses are heavily self selected on the side of wanting more complex mechanics.

So consider this post representing a large but quiet group of people who just want a simple +2 Str on their barbarian instead.

(Even though I personally would rather have more interesting feats).

I like the option of being able to focus on the core competency of the primary ability scores. I like the high cap. That is one of the greatest strengths of 5E. You don't HAVE to opt into a bunch of alternative abilities and can focus on the basics. It seems like anyone who wants the cap at 18 wants to force others (not themselves, as they have their own free will) to diversify with their feats, removing the option to focus on the core competency.

I have more than one player in my life that just want to be good at their baseline abilities, and don't want to deal with decision paralysis of hunting down the specifics of 3 different feats to remind themselves of other things they can do.

 

[Asisreo]

Darts are shuriken. Monks should be proficient in darts and simple slings, imo.

Yep, in fact, that's always been how I've played shadow monks.

The obvious problem is that you either dual-wield the daggers and only get two attacks in the first round and draw and throw them one-at-a-time for the rest of combat or you simply don't do it. Which sucks.

But with the new draw-and-throw rulings, you can now consistently throw your daggers. Even better, you can use your BA to try to stun/remove OA from your opponent, then move away, throw your daggers, then move even further. Which makes an effective kiting pattern.

 

[Clint_L]

I hadn't thought of this use, but I like it. I love the varies defensive options the monk has now, even if it is a bit hard to grasp for a beginner.

1. Use your Bonus Action to dodge (costs 1 dp) and your Action to attack. This si the low-level option.
2. Use your Action to Dodge and attack with bonus action only. Past level 10, this option is actually more aggressive.

The monk has always been squishy, but no you can be tanky by giving up some but not all offense. I quite like it.

I think high level monks might be too tanky. An 18+ monk has evasion, proficiency in and effectively advantage on all saving throws, can more or less negate one entire attack/turn through deflect attack/energy, has resistance to everything but force damage, and can use their attack to take the dodge action (more or less pushing critical hits off the table), all while still doing three attacks/round through flurry of blows. Oh, and if they spend their feats on ASIs they can have an AC of 25, naked, when they hit level 20.

I'm all for monks being tanky enough to off-tank or survive as a deep penetration skirmisher. But they shouldn't suddenly become the main tank as well - it's too much. But that's what effectively happens once they get superior defence (which doesn't even consume an action) at level 18. I think they should get something else instead. Leave the blanket damage resistance for bear totem barbarians.

 

[Clint_L]

Level 20 Mercy monk (2024), naked, vs. Ancient Red Dragon.

Monk: AC 25, HP 123, DPR 48 (four unarmed strikes+1 hand of harm, also applying the poisoned condition).

Red Dragon: AC 22, HP 546, DPR 19 (bite is negated by deflect attack, so two claw attacks (34) + three LA tail attacks (57), x.65 x.65 x.5). (Its breath weapon is basically off the table due to the monk's dex saves with advantage and deflect energy to mitigate a rare fail)

Red Dragon wins in seven rounds but takes 336 damage compared to dishing out 133. Oh, and it can't just fly around and strafe the monk, who is much, much faster than it.

Edit: what is the new level 1 tough feat, again? Does that buy the monk a few more rounds?

And give the monk a bit of equipment, and they win. Like some bracers of defence, a ring of protection, and eldritch claws tattoo. Not too hard to come by at level 20.

Edit 2: as usual I forgot to factor in critical hit damage so the monk is actually doing about 51 DPR and finishing with 357 done to the dragon.

 

[Stalker0]

Level 20 Mercy monk (2024), naked, vs. Ancient Red Dragon.

Monk: AC 25, HP 123, DPR 48 (four unarmed strikes+1 hand of harm, also applying the poisoned condition).

Red Dragon: AC 22, HP 546, DPR 19 (bite is negated by deflect attack, so two claw attacks (34) + three LA tail attacks (57), x.65 x.65 x.5). (Its breath weapon is basically off the table due to the monk's dex saves with advantage and deflect energy to mitigate a rare fail)

Red Dragon wins in seven rounds but takes 336 damage compared to dishing out 133. Oh, and it can't just fly around and strafe the monk, who is much, much faster than it.

Edit: what is the new level 1 tough feat, again? Does that buy the monk a few more rounds?

And give the monk a bit of equipment, and they win. Like some bracers of defence, a ring of protection, and eldritch claws tattoo. Not too hard to come by at level 20.

A great example, probably best to repeat it with the barbarian for a good comparison. although that said, to me in this model the monk is the epitome of 1v1 tankiness, whereas the barbarian is the "I tank everything" guy.

 

[Gammadoodler]

Level 20 Mercy monk (2024), naked, vs. Ancient Red Dragon.

Monk: AC 25, HP 123, DPR 48 (four unarmed strikes+1 hand of harm, also applying the poisoned condition).

Red Dragon: AC 22, HP 546, DPR 19 (bite is negated by deflect attack, so two claw attacks (34) + three LA tail attacks (57), x.65 x.65 x.5). (Its breath weapon is basically off the table due to the monk's dex saves with advantage and deflect energy to mitigate a rare fail)

Red Dragon wins in seven rounds but takes 336 damage compared to dishing out 133. Oh, and it can't just fly around and strafe the monk, who is much, much faster than it.

Edit: what is the new level 1 tough feat, again? Does that buy the monk a few more rounds?

And give the monk a bit of equipment, and they win. Like some bracers of defence, a ring of protection, and eldritch claws tattoo. Not too hard to come by at level 20.

If we're looking at differences vs. the PHB monk, it seems to me that most of the load here is carried by the AC, saves, and tohit boost included in the capstone.

Most everything else outside of the deflection is already baked into the PHB monk albeit in differing forms, and the deflection can only occur 1x per round.

 

[Clint_L]

If we're looking at differences vs. the PHB monk, it seems to me that most of the load here is carried by the AC, saves, and tohit boost included in the capstone.

Most everything else outside of the deflection is already baked into the PHB monk albeit in differing forms, and the deflection can only occur 1x per round.

The deflection actually becomes much less valuable after level 18, unless the monk is fighting someone who does force damage. At level 20 it would reduce the damage of an attack by about 34, which means the original attack would have had to have been for 68 HP because of the blanket resistance. But very few creatures hit for 68+ damage per attack. So the damage mitigated will actually be quite lower.

As an example, vs. the red dragon above I had the monk mitigating the bite as the biggest single hit...but that bite is only hitting for about 10 damage after resistance. So most of the deflect attack is being wasted.

This is another reason I think damage resistant is a bit of an odd ability to give the monk at level 18. It sort of clashes with deflect attack.

 

[mellored]

The deflection actually becomes much less valuable after level 18, unless the monk is fighting someone who does force damage. At level 20 it would reduce the damage of an attack by about 34, which means the original attack would have had to have been for 68 HP because of the blanket resistance

Per the rules.
"Resistance and then vulnerability are applied after all other modifiers to damage."

 

[Mistwell]

I think high level monks might be too tanky. An 18+ monk has evasion, proficiency in and effectively advantage on all saving throws, can more or less negate one entire attack/turn through deflect attack/energy, has resistance to everything but force damage, and can use their attack to take the dodge action (more or less pushing critical hits off the table), all while still doing three attacks/round through flurry of blows. Oh, and if they spend their feats on ASIs they can have an AC of 25, naked, when they hit level 20.

I'm all for monks being tanky enough to off-tank or survive as a deep penetration skirmisher. But they shouldn't suddenly become the main tank as well - it's too much. But that's what effectively happens once they get superior defence (which doesn't even consume an action) at level 18. I think they should get something else instead. Leave the blanket damage resistance for bear totem barbarians.

I dunno, hard to worry about 18th level. How do they compare to that 18th level barbarian for that?

 

[Clint_L]

I dunno, hard to worry about 18th level. How do they compare to that 18th level barbarian for that?

Very favourably, because of the ability to impose disadvantage and absorb a bunch of damage. The barbarian will have a lot more HP: 285!!! But the dragon will be doing a lot more damage, and the barbarian will be doing less...I think? If the barbarian does reckless attacks and brutal strike their DPS goes up but their survivability goes down. I'll let someone else figure out that math.

Without doing reckless attacks, our naked barbarian has a DPR of 26. Meanwhile, the dragon's DPR becomes 38. So the barbarian survives a bit longer, 8 rounds, but only does 208 damage.

Realistically, the monk should be able to solo that dragon with just a bit of gear; it's a heavier lift for the barbarian. Also, this isn't just for 1v1 fights; once damage resistance kicks in I think it likely that the monk, current 2024 version, is the best single-class tank in the game in most situations at levels 18-20. That doesn't feel right.

Maybe something like a paladin with a barbarian dip is tougher? Paladin 17, barbarian 1, fighter 2?

Edit: spaced out and was thinking the barbarian's AC was strength and con, not dex and con. That dragon is doing WAY more damage.