D&D (2024) Playtest 8 Spell Discussion

Glimmering Smite
Banishing Smite
Blinding Smite
Searing Smite
Shining Smite
Staggering Smite
Thunderous Smite
Wrathful Smite

I remember liking the majority of the changes to the smite spells. Some of them I would have buffed a little here or there, but in general they were good.

Create Spell
Memorize Spell
Modify Spell
Scribe Spell

Scribe Spell was fine, it filled a lore gap for me personally. Memorize spell basically still exists and that flabbergasts me. Create and Modify spell... I understand the cool factor, but they would have shattered the game play into pieces, so I can't be sad they are gone.

Eldritch Blast
Hex
Pact Familiar
Pack Weapon
Arcane Eruption
Book of Shadows
Chaos Bolt
Sorcerous Burst
Sorcerous Vitality
Sorcery Incarnate

I liked the changes to Eldritch Blast, and the Pact's becoming spells. Pact Familiar in particular was very nice. Arcane Eruption is a very good spell, and I appreciate the change to Chaos Bolt even if it could go further. Sorcerous Burst is a great addition to Sorcerers. Vitality and Incarnate were both bad, and I'm not sad to see them go, excepting that better and functional versions would have been appreciated. I never liked the change to hex, except when they went back to Pact magic when it was fine, and then they removed it again.

Conjure Barrage
Conjure Volley
Divine Smite
Elementalism
Hunter's Mark

I don't like the change to Hunter's Mark. I like the change to Divine Smite. Elementalism is annoyingly nothing. The Conjure Spells were made a little better, but they probably could have gone further.

Barkskin
Find Familiar
Find Steed
Power Word Heal
Power Word Kill
Counterspell
Jump

Counterspell and Jump were good changes. I liked the Find Familiar and Find Steed as statblocks, but they needed some touch ups. Barkskin was an interesting change, though the overlap with Heroism was unfortunate. The Power Words were excellent changes. I think I remember Kill doing damage, which was MASSIVELY needed.

Vicious Mockery
Acid Splash
Blade Ward
Chill Touch
Friends
Poison Spray
Produce Flame
Shillelagh
Shocking Grasp
Spare the Dying
True Strike

I like all of the cantrip changes.

Conjure Animals
Conjure Celestial
Conjure Elemental
Conjure Fey
Conjure Minor Elementals
Conjure Woodland Beings
Fount of Moonlight
Healing Word
Mass Cure Wounds
Mass Healing Word
Power Word Fortify
Starry Wisp

The healing buffs are great. The new Fount and Starry wisp are fine spells (We'd had a homebrewed version of starry wisp for years now. Power Word Fortify is insanse.

The Conjure Spells... don't excite me. Most of them are just Spirit Guardians with minor changes. I wish they would have done more interesting things with them.
 

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There is no proficiency. Mystic words are mystic words. They're mystic whether you are trained or untrained, a caster or non-caster. If you like though, you can require the PC to have arcana. Oh, right, PCs already have all skills whether proficient or not. So pick any skill you can think of and the PC has it and will recognize mystic words.

So, you declare they are recognized by "anyone with the training" which would imply proficiency, and now they are just recognized because they are recognized with no training? And the language of Fire isn't a mystical language? You never explained that actually, what makes the Language of Fire NOT a mystical language?

Incorrect. What it means that is even with a 3 int you can recognize mystic words when you hear them. Nothing about a 3 int by RAW means you can't recognize such words. You have one specific beats general example of a 1 int being unable to do it, but nothing by RAW says even a 1 int acquired another way will prevent the PC from understanding the words.

Nothing in any books says that Int 3 can recognize words. In fact, many creatures with an INT 3 specifically do not understand any language. So, this reads like special pleading for the thing you made up to just have the exact properties you need it to have.

So tell me. How do you know you are seeing a creature cast the spell if you don't know what the words are? Something has to tell you so that you can counterspell.

Nobody is going to just walk around launching random counterspells without knowing a spell is being cast, which is what you are arguing by saying you don't need to know it's casting a spell. 🤦‍♂️

I do not know how you know, it is a function of magic. The rules simply state that I know. You cannot claim that knowing the words is required because

1) There is no requirement that counterspell can only be used by a caster or someone with spellcasting. A creature with a boon or a magical item could still cast counterspell.

2) There is no requirement to hear a spell being cast. Deaf creatures can counterspell.

3) There is no requirement to understand what spellcasting is, extreme low INT beings can still utilize Counterspell.

You can make these incorrect claims until you are blue in the face, but until you can show that the DMG is lying, you are wrong. Can you show the DMG statement to be a lie?

They are a suggestion because they are a suggestion. Can you show the DMG statement to be a lie?

Can you show the DMG statement to be a lie?

I do not need to show that the DMG is lying. That is ludicrous. The PHB contains the general, baseline rules, this is true. The Monster Manual contains monsters, this is also true. The Monster Manual ADDITIONALLY contains rules. The rules for the monsters, which are contained in the Monster Manual.

Using the PHB, you cannot describe how a Burrow Speed works.
Using the PHB, you cannot describe how Tremorsense works.
Using the PHB, you cannot describe how Proficiency works for creatures that do not have Levels.
Using the PHB, you cannot describe how a mid-combat recharge of an ability using a die works.

These are rules. These are very explicitly rules. Just like the rules in the PHB for swimming, darkvision, short rest recharges and proficiency by level.

But you do need to know what it is in order to cast, "Destroy Iso-Flux." If you didn't know what one was, would you cast it every time you saw something you didn't know about? No, you wouldn't.

If it states that when I see an Iso-Flux activating, I can cast this spell to destroy it, then I can. There is no requirement to know what it looks like.

You also cannot cast a reaction spell that does not have the proper trigger. A player can't declare they cast shield when someone walks over to them. The trigger is not met, so the spell cannot be cast.

There's already an optional rule for that and it takes your reaction. It's also yet ANOTHER strawman to claim I'm saying that they need to ID the spell.

OH!!! Since you've successfully argued that splatbooks are RAW, yes your Strawman does work that way by RAW. By RAW you need to spend your reaction and make a roll in order to ID the spell. See Xanathar's.

Yes, if I choose to use that rule, it would work that way to identify the nature of the spell. How would I know to use my reaction to try and discern the nature of the spellcasting, if I am deaf and otherwise would have no idea what I am looking at? Would I still be able to make the attempt?

By your standards.. no, I would not. If I were deaf, I would be incapable of identifying a spell. However, yet again, this requirement is not in the Xanathar's rules. You simply need to see the creature.

And yet according to you, someone would be revealed as casting a spell despite doing absolutely nothing to indicate that it is casting a spell. Absolutely nothing. Because moving lips do not indicate spellcasting. That's essentially perfect knowledge.

If they are casting a spell, they are not doing nothing. They are casting a spell. And the counterspell can be activated when you see a creature casting a spell. If moving your lips to move your lips, you are not spellcasting. If moving your lips to spellcast, you are spellcasting.

Must there be some X factor to make this make sense to our human senses? Sure, but that can be a factor of a Non-euclidean, magical world, which we do not exist within.
 

So, you declare they are recognized by "anyone with the training" which would imply proficiency, and now they are just recognized because they are recognized with no training? And the language of Fire isn't a mystical language? You never explained that actually, what makes the Language of Fire NOT a mystical language?
It's not spellcasting and is the language of races. I thought that was self-evident.
Nothing in any books says that Int 3 can recognize words. In fact, many creatures with an INT 3 specifically do not understand any language. So, this reads like special pleading for the thing you made up to just have the exact properties you need it to have.
None of that is relevant. It needs to say that you can't, since you inherently can. Show me where it says you can.t.
I do not need to show that the DMG is lying. That is ludicrous. The PHB contains the general, baseline rules, this is true. The Monster Manual contains monsters, this is also true. The Monster Manual ADDITIONALLY contains rules. The rules for the monsters, which are contained in the Monster Manual.
Yes you do. You are the one claiming that the DMG is lying when it says the rules to play the game are in the PHB. You're the one claiming it's lying when you say that the DMG is full of rules. You're the one claiming the DMG is lying by saying the MM is rules.

Until you can show that your claim is true and the DMG which contradicts you is lying, you can't succeed with your argument.
Using the PHB, you cannot describe how a Burrow Speed works.
Using the PHB, you cannot describe how Tremorsense works.
Using the PHB, you cannot describe how Proficiency works for creatures that do not have Levels.
Using the PHB, you cannot describe how a mid-combat recharge of an ability using a die works.

These are rules. These are very explicitly rules. Just like the rules in the PHB for swimming, darkvision, short rest recharges and proficiency by level.
I don't need to. I have the MM and DMG guidelines for that. And they will remain guidelines until you show the DMG statement is a lie.

I deleted the rest. I'm not going to respond to you again until you show the DMG statement to be a lie, because it contradicts you.
 

It's not spellcasting and is the language of races. I thought that was self-evident.

Why isn't it a language of spellcasting? Where does it say that you can't use Infernal, Abyssal, Celestial, Sylvan, Ignan, Aquan, Terran, or Auran to cast magic? Those can all be words of mystical power, and in many traditions such languages are.

None of that is relevant. It needs to say that you can't, since you inherently can. Show me where it says you can.t.

Where it says an INT 3 can't? I'd offer you literally every single INT 3 creature and their lack of languages, and no reference to "understands but cannot speak" but I am going to guess you are going to look at that overwhelming evidence and declare that it doesn't matter. Because all the examples in the world don't matter unless the PHB specifically states it, right? Because evidence only matters when it agrees with you.

Yes you do. You are the one claiming that the DMG is lying when it says the rules to play the game are in the PHB. You're the one claiming it's lying when you say that the DMG is full of rules. You're the one claiming the DMG is lying by saying the MM is rules.

Until you can show that your claim is true and the DMG which contradicts you is lying, you can't succeed with your argument.

Fine, since you want to insist the DMG is lying, I'll address this point. Even though it is really simple if you were paying attention.

Here is the text you are quoting and relying on "This book has two important companions: the Player's Handbook, which contains the rules your players need to create characters and the rules you need to run the game, and the Monster Manual, which contains ready-to use monsters to populate your D&D world."

What does this say? This says that the PHB contains the rules to create characters. Is this true? Yes. This says that the PHB contains the rules to run the game. Is this true? Yes, it contains the rules for d20 rolls, attacks, skills, and many other rules to run the game. Does this say that the ONLY rules in the ENTIRE game are in the PHB? No, it doesn't say that. Does this say that NO RULES AT ALL exist anywhere else other than the PHB? No, it doesn't. It says the Monster Manual contains monsters, is this true? Yes. Does it say that NO RULES AT ALL exist in the monster manual? No, it doesn't. It doesn't say that the monster manual contains zero rules, or that it only contains guidelines that should not be followed unless you feel like it.

And do you know what else this passage does not say? It does not say that the DMG lacks rules, or is only full of guidelines.

So, is the DMG lying? No. The DMG says that the PHB contains the basic rules for the game and character creation and the MM contains monsters, both are true statements. YOU are being misleading trying to turn this into a statement that because the monster book is called out as containing monsters that is has zero rules, or that since the DMG isn't mentioned in the paragraph talking about the other two books, then it must contain only guidelines and nothing else. Stop acting like rules aren't rules, just because one book was called out as holding the basic rules and the other books weren't.

I deleted the rest. I'm not going to respond to you again until you show the DMG statement to be a lie, because it contradicts you.

Well, feel free to respond now, since I've addressed your fallacious claims.
 

Why isn't it a language of spellcasting? Where does it say that you can't use Infernal, Abyssal, Celestial, Sylvan, Ignan, Aquan, Terran, or Auran to cast magic? Those can all be words of mystical power, and in many traditions such languages are.



Where it says an INT 3 can't? I'd offer you literally every single INT 3 creature and their lack of languages, and no reference to "understands but cannot speak" but I am going to guess you are going to look at that overwhelming evidence and declare that it doesn't matter. Because all the examples in the world don't matter unless the PHB specifically states it, right? Because evidence only matters when it agrees with you.



Fine, since you want to insist the DMG is lying, I'll address this point. Even though it is really simple if you were paying attention.

Here is the text you are quoting and relying on "This book has two important companions: the Player's Handbook, which contains the rules your players need to create characters and the rules you need to run the game, and the Monster Manual, which contains ready-to use monsters to populate your D&D world."

What does this say? This says that the PHB contains the rules to create characters. Is this true? Yes. This says that the PHB contains the rules to run the game. Is this true? Yes, it contains the rules for d20 rolls, attacks, skills, and many other rules to run the game. Does this say that the ONLY rules in the ENTIRE game are in the PHB? No, it doesn't say that. Does this say that NO RULES AT ALL exist anywhere else other than the PHB? No, it doesn't. It says the Monster Manual contains monsters, is this true? Yes. Does it say that NO RULES AT ALL exist in the monster manual? No, it doesn't. It doesn't say that the monster manual contains zero rules, or that it only contains guidelines that should not be followed unless you feel like it.

And do you know what else this passage does not say? It does not say that the DMG lacks rules, or is only full of guidelines.

So, is the DMG lying? No. The DMG says that the PHB contains the basic rules for the game and character creation and the MM contains monsters, both are true statements. YOU are being misleading trying to turn this into a statement that because the monster book is called out as containing monsters that is has zero rules, or that since the DMG isn't mentioned in the paragraph talking about the other two books, then it must contain only guidelines and nothing else. Stop acting like rules aren't rules, just because one book was called out as holding the basic rules and the other books weren't.



Well, feel free to respond now, since I've addressed your fallacious claims.
All you've done is assume that the DMG is misleading everyone with its text rather than understand that it says what it means, because if it meant what you are saying, it would have actually said so. You continue to assume and add without any explicit language "and rules" to those statements about the DMG and MM. 🤷‍♂️
 
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I watch a video where a work and labor specialist state that :
« If your job contain no uncertainty then it will be the first to be replace by an AI. »
 


We are still missing Animate Object rework.

Yeah, that's a tough one, since I don't want Spirit Guardians 4.0.

Hmm... would a requirement that each object has to target a different creature work for the tiny objects? I'm not sure what do to for large and larger objects other than increase the damage.
 

All you've done is assume that the DMG is misleading everyone with its text rather than understand that it says what it means, because if it meant what you are saying, it would have actually said so. You continue to assume and add without any explicit language "and rules" to those statements about the DMG and MM. 🤷‍♂️

The quoted text said nothing about the DMG at all. I would have to add a passage about the DMG to begin with.

And why would they need to state that the rules for running monsters are in the book with the monsters? Natural language, remember? Additionally, I am not assuming the DMG is misleading anyone at all. The PHB does contain rules for making characters and running the game. However, you have gone a step further, assuming that therefore no other rules for the game exist. But that is blatantly fallacious. You can't even support it with evidence, because you have already conceded that optional rules exist in other books. Therefore, rules can exist in other books.

I see you have also completely abandoned any pretense of having an argument as for why your special mystical language must exist, and why it must be completely different than any other language in the game.
 


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