TSR The Dreams in Gary's Basement

[Mistwell]

Unfortunately, I have been traveling internationally and am still under the weather, but I'm with it enough to notice this.

I can't help but remember this thread. Now, looking back at it, I can see that you participated in it, from a certain point of view, including repeating things that were questionable. Some of which I addressed in two very lengthy posts. Here and here.

Now, of course, I am a little disturbed to see that you are misstating my argument by saying that I am calling her a hero. Which is rather interesting, given that you seem to also be claiming to be demanding accuracy. I think anyone who actually looks as that thread, and the links I just provided, can see that you are badly misstating what I said ... moreover, it will be fairly obvious that you are one of the individuals that seem to require holding Lorraine out for special contempt.

I linked to that thread when I said it, so that people could see the context for themselves. I do not think I misstated anything. You concluded differently, but you started your positives with calling her a hero. That's accurate. And so when he said nobody was trying to redeem her reputation, I thought it fair to say you were in fact attempting to redeem her reputation there. And I think that's a fair read of what you wrote, even including your conclusion. I mean, her reputation was negative right? And you were trying to change that view to be, at least, more neutral right? So how were you not trying to redeem her reputation? I think it's fair to say your bias concerning this topic is to try and redeem Williams' reputation to be more positive than it previously was, and that bias influences your approach to any discussion of her reputation including this claim about her keeping trophies.

This is what people are pushing back against. Look, I think everyone here knows that I love Gygax as much as (if not more than) the next person. But I am also perfectly able to recognize that he lost his fastball when he went out to Hollywood (although the women and drugs may have played a role in that). I can balance my love for what he did for the hobby for a decade with the many unpleasant things he did as well- including running TSR into the ground, and the terrible and rampant self-dealing he was involved in (along with the Blumes) that has been extensively documented.

I've said nothing about Gygax one way or the other and I don't see how ones views of Gygax are relevant. All I said was there is a claim that Williams kept trophies of the people she fired, and the claim was backed by more than one alum of TSR, and that people I trust and who are themselves reputable included that as a relevant detail in the documentary they made about the hobby.

If your view of that claim is in some way hinged on your view of Gygax, I'd suggest it would be wise to detach it and look at the issue a second time.

And, in the same way, I can acknowledge that Lorraine did good things for TSR, as well as bad things- without resorting to the many terrible and misogynistic stories that people passed around as gospel, or, even worse, accepting as truth the many lies that were passed around about her. It's easy enough to view the true facts of the situation and view them on the merits without succumbing to the "good ol' boys" stories of the 80s and 90s about Lorraine, most of which don't stand up under scrutiny, and many of them look quite a bit different today.

Are you alleging that the filmmakers here are terrible, misogynistic, and passing around false rumors of Williams by repeating what they were told by these TSR alums about Williams keeping trophies of employees she fired or not? If it's not, then you appear to be suggesting it without saying it and you should correct it. If it is, then I'd say it would be time for them to be invited to this conversation to defend themselves. These are real people with a specific claim being made, not some vague "people" to be slandered on a message board to make a point.

More to the point- all of those "HA HA FAT WOMAN BAD!" stories that gamers loved to employ back in the day just don't seem so great, do they?

Are you suggesting James Lowder and Jon Peterson have ever said or implied Williams is "a bad fat woman?"

Come on man, you're responding to a specific thing with a generalization while trying to simultaneously claim you're not trying to redeem Williams' reputation. I think that was a tightrope you just fell off.

ETA- I would like to add the final note that I have been reiterating. We have repeatedly heard from the few women that worked at TSR that it was not a welcoming environment for women. Is it any surprise that those same people who were not welcoming to their co-workers would be less-than-charitable about a female boss?

Are you saying the claim is false and James Lowder and Jon Peterson were taken in by people lying to them, or that James Lowder and Jon Peterson are the ones lying here?

 

[CellarHeroes]

Whoa! If that one line from the documentary is stirring up this much discussion, I can't wait until they get to the part where TSR alum are asked to talk about Dave and Gary's falling out and who "invented" D&D as we know it.
But seriously, it's a pretty humorous take on the subject.

 

[Clint_L]

Yes, I call eyewitness testimony from multiple sources, as stated by sources you already said you trust, as good verification.

I take it neither of us have actually seen the documentary, so maybe there is more there than in the description we have been given. But that did not sound like eyewitness testimony. It sounded like the documentarians citing sources. Are those sources specifically identified? What, exactly, did they see? What were these trophies? Are the sources interviewed in the documentary explaining what they saw? There is a lot of missing context.

We have a story from one person that sounds made up - maybe by him, maybe by Williams as a weird flex, maybe just through the usual game of office grapevine. Who knows? And then we have a separate but related claim that thus far seems unsupported by anything verifiable.

That's the journalism standard: at least two sources confirming the same thing.

Are the sources identified? Are they confirming that they heard a rumour, or confirming that they saw something with their own eyes? Are they in collusion? How credible are they? Do they have a motive that could affect their truthfulness one way or the other? How recent was the event?

It's, again, WAY more than you have for hundreds of employees claiming to want to work for one person rather than the other without even a second source to confirm it.

I am referring interviews from Slaying the Dragon. You don't need a second source to confirm that someone said something when they are interviewed for the record, and when that something is a personal feeling, it doesn't need corroboration.

"I personally preferred working for A over working for B": does not need further verification.

"Person A is so terrible that they kept trophies of those they fired": needs further verification. In this case, I would want strong verification because it is a pretty damning indictment, of a person who has a history of being unfairly villainized. My skepticism towards claims about Lorraine Williams being the worst person ever is very high.

I feel like we're going in circles here. You were perfectly comfortable with zero standards for what supports your view to begin this conversation

I'm not sure what you are referring to. I used to believe that Lorraine Williams was the terrible person she was reputed to be. But the more I have learned about the situation, from reading books and interviews with people willing to go on the record, the more I think that she was a difficult person in a difficult position. And I know for a fact that many of the attacks on her are viciously misogynistic and unfair.

and then were dismissive of any claims which didn't support your views, with increasing demands for evidence which you wouldn't apply to yourself. So where does a conversation go from there?

I do demand the same evidence for my own beliefs. Can you cite the example to which you are referring where I don't do this, as I am very unclear on what you are referring to? As I specifically stated, at the start, I generally ignore character attacks that are based on rumours.

 

[MNblockhead]

The documentary goes into the poor management at TSR, including bad business decisions, nepotism (didn't give named examples), and Gary's and the Blume's lack of management skills and training. It discussed the wave of layoffs that happened at TSR before Gary hired Lorraine Williams as VP of operations. It talks of how she game from money (the Dille family and their ownership of the Buck Rogers IP). It covers how Gary and her butted heads almost from the beginning. She didn't feel that TSR was being managed well.

"He [Gary] made a tactical error of dressing her down in front of an open board of directors meeting." Luke Gygax.

It discusses how the Blumes wanted to sell their shares and how her terms were that she would buy all their shares or nothing. After that the board of directors terminated Gary Gygax as CEO and made Lorraine the CEO. It cover the legal dispute between Gary and Lorraine.

Len Lakofka states that a lot of "Gary's personal allies became perona non grata to him" during this period.

Then it goes to Frank Mentzer's Berkeley story:

"The thing that dismayed me the most in talking to Ms Williams after she took over TSR was that she was very proud of the fact that back in the 60s at Berkeley, as head of student government, she had arranged for a concet but caust the musicians with illegal drugs and cancelled the concert and fired them. The musicians were the Jimi Hendrix experience. She was proud of this, that she had tossed them out of Berkeley and that she had kept a poster as a trophy of her victory over Jimi Hendrix." - Frank Mentzer speaking

It follows Frank's story with the following caveat:

"The filmakers were unable to confirm that the Berkeley incident occurred. But other former TSR employees states that Ms Williams did keep 'trophies' of people she had fired."

I felt this was probably the weakest part of the documentary. First, it feels that this was a situation of a story too good to not include. Second, they could have stopped after the first sentence of the caveat. Third, this is where they end any discussion of Lorraine Williams. I realize it is not a documentary on TSR and the focus is on Gary's life, but it seems to be a very obvious choice on how to portray Williams.

 

[MNblockhead]

Whoa! If that one line from the documentary is stirring up this much discussion, I can't wait until they get to the part where TSR alum are asked to talk about Dave and Gary's falling out and who "invented" D&D as we know it.
But seriously, it's a pretty humorous take on the subject.

It is interesting. Several of those interviewed were not comfortable talking about it at all.

They start the subject with a clip with them asking Frank Metzner "Had he expressed opinions to you about the Arneson lawsuit and the merits or lack thereof?” Frank sits in uncomfortable silence for a few moments and then they jump to reactions of others:
"Yeah, let's skip that one." Peter Atkison
"I certainly want to make a disclaimer that I am his son and so I may have a bias." Luke Gygax
"No, I'm going to change the subject on you. Because this is just not something I can comment on." Lee Gold (Editor, Alarums & Excursions)
Its left mostly to game historian Jon Peterson to cover the background of the falling out between Gary and Dave and the resulting lawsuits.

Nothing really new here. I feel it was fair to both sides, leaning into to view of Dave sparking the idea and Gary being the guy who put in the work to make a saleable product and bring it to market.

They sum it with a few quotes from industry veterans:

"Dave contributed some ideas and very little writing and, so, but that superficial comparison, sure, Gary shouldn't have had to share so much with Dave." Metzner.

"If it hadn't been for Gary Gygax, there might be some people playing Arneson's Blackmoor, but if it hadn't been for Arneson, nobody would be playing anything." Dave Wesely.

It is a documentary on Gary's life so Arneson fans are not going to feel that he got enough coverage. But I think that they gave quite a bit of coverage of Arneson's important contribution in introducing the concept to Gary.

 

[MNblockhead]

I also found it interesting that Luke Gygax was the only one of Gary Gygax's children or surviving relatives who was interviewed.

 

[Clint_L]

I also found it interesting that Luke Gygax was the only one of Gary Gygax's children or surviving relatives who was interviewed.

That is surprising - he had six kids, several of whom were among the first D&D players.

 

[Sacrosanct]

It is interesting. Several of those interviewed were not comfortable talking about it at all.

They start the subject with a clip with them asking Frank Metzner "Had he expressed opinions to you about the Arneson lawsuit and the merits or lack thereof?” Frank sits in uncomfortable silence for a few moments and then they jump to reactions of others:
"Yeah, let's skip that one." Peter Atkison
"I certainly want to make a disclaimer that I am his son and so I may have a bias." Luke Gygax
"No, I'm going to change the subject on you. Because this is just not something I can comment on." Lee Gold (Editor, Alarums & Excursions)
Its left mostly to game historian Jon Peterson to cover the background of the falling out between Gary and Dave and the resulting lawsuits.

Nothing really new here. I feel it was fair to both sides, leaning into to view of Dave sparking the idea and Gary being the guy who put in the work to make a saleable product and bring it to market.

They sum it with a few quotes from industry veterans:

"Dave contributed some ideas and very little writing and, so, but that superficial comparison, sure, Gary shouldn't have had to share so much with Dave." Metzner.

"If it hadn't been for Gary Gygax, there might be some people playing Arneson's Blackmoor, but if it hadn't been for Arneson, nobody would be playing anything." Dave Wesely.

It is a documentary on Gary's life so Arneson fans are not going to feel that he got enough coverage. But I think that they gave quite a bit of coverage of Arneson's important contribution in introducing the concept to Gary.

I’ve heard David Wesley tell me that exact same thing a few years ago. At least he’s consistent

 

[QuentinGeorge]

I also found it interesting that Luke Gygax was the only one of Gary Gygax's children or surviving relatives who was interviewed.

Of his children only Ernie, Luke and Alex are really active gamers. Alex is the youngest, and more into video games and Magic. And (as I've previously stated in this thread) Ernie, let's be honest, is a bit flakey. That leaves Luke.

 

[Sacrosanct]

Of his children only Ernie, Luke and Alex are really active gamers. Alex is the youngest, and more into video games and Magic. And (as I've previously stated in this thread) Ernie, let's be honest, is a bit flakey. That leaves Luke.

Heidi is involved in Gaxland, which is gaming. But this is a documentary, and both Heidi and Elise were involved in those early days so I’d think they would be suitable for interviews. Maybe they declined.