D&D 5E Where's the Villain? and other musings. Why some published campaigns are great and some aren't (Spoiler alerts)

[TheSword]

Ahh, we're just having a semantic difference then. Sure felt like a campaign to me when I ran the adventures. And, it's not actually that hard to tie a lot of them closer together if you want. It's just that the module isn't going to do it for you. I wound up adding and moving stuff around to make it a coherent story.

But, that aside, you're basically saying that a published campaign cannot be episodic, which is something I strongly disagree with. A "published anthology" is an episodic campaign. Ghosts of Saltmarsh is another fantastic episodic campaign. Outside of the 3 modules, most of it is totally unconnected as written. Still a great campaign.

Just not a serial one.

On reflection I think that is fair. I did love Ghosts of Saltmarsh it was a really fun campaign ran by @GuyBoy. In hindsight I do think he turned one of the NPCs into a major villain and defeating him was one of the driving motivations for the campaign.

You’re right though there is little difference between the serial adventures in Candlekeep and the individual locations in Tomb of Annihilation.

I do think Candlekeep would be improved with a serial villain though. Someone either in competition with the PCs or part of a meta plot with the keep. Either an internal or external threat, doesn’t really matter.

Just wondering how much better Descent into Avernus could be if it was mashed up with Candlekeep - the keep fleshed out with multiple NPCs with Librarians style hunts for Zariels cultists, hidden books and the the keep itself dragged into Avernus instead of Elturel!

 

[Hussar]

Oh I agree. Candlekeep actually features very little in the modules. And virtually none of the npcs are reused.

I’d actually prefer if Candlekeep were given a much more prominent role in the modules.

Hindsight being 20/20.

 

[Whizbang Dustyboots]

Oh I agree. Candlekeep actually features very little in the modules. And virtually none of the npcs are reused.

I’d actually prefer if Candlekeep were given a much more prominent role in the modules.

Hindsight being 20/20.

Same issue with the Radiant Citadel, which is a really interesting location, and used in none of the adventures. (The book is good, but could use one more pass to explain the connections between the various worlds, which clearly exist in some places, what languages are spoken in the citadel, and provide at least a single introductory adventure there.)

 

[Hussar]

Same issue with the Radiant Citadel, which is a really interesting location, and used in none of the adventures. (The book is good, but could use one more pass to explain the connections between the various worlds, which clearly exist in some places, what languages are spoken in the citadel, and provide at least a single introductory adventure there.)

From my experience, this is a limitation on the Anthology style adventures. Ghosts of Saltmarsh spends a fair number of pages detailing Saltmarsh and surroundings, and then... nothing. Outside of the three Saltmarsh adventures (only one of which actually takes place near Saltmarsh) the other adventures don't even reference the town or its surroundings. Basically, you've got a nifty town write-up that you, as a DM, now have to write adventures for because the module completely ignores it.

Even Undermountain never actually references anything about Waterdeep particularly. It's treated as entirely separate, despite having Dragonheist as the intro. You spend 5 levels in Dragonheist getting deeply imbedded in Waterdeep. For all it's failings, that's one thing 'Heist does really well - make the players a part of Waterdeep. And then? Head off into Undermountain and all those factions, groups, and stuff you did for the first five levels? Yeah, forget about all of that. :'(

I don't mind episodic adventures. In fact, I probably prefer them to more serial adventures like Horde of the Dragon Queen. But, man, I do wish the episodic WotC adventures were a lot more tied together. Granted, the DM can tie things together. It's fantastic for home brewing that way. Which is the point I suppose.

 

[pukunui]

I don't mind episodic adventures. In fact, I probably prefer them to more serial adventures like Horde of the Dragon Queen. But, man, I do wish the episodic WotC adventures were a lot more tied together. Granted, the DM can tie things together. It's fantastic for home brewing that way. Which is the point I suppose.

Precisely my point upthread. The WotC hardcovers are done this way on purpose. I'm guessing they would say that it's easier to add connections than it is to remove them, which is why the plots for their hardcover serial adventures and the themes for their anthologies are so thin.

I'm not so fussed about the thin plots or themes. I would just like more adventure support for Eberron at this point. Give us some hardcovers set there instead of on the Sword Coast please!

 

[Whizbang Dustyboots]

The WotC hardcovers are done this way on purpose. I'm guessing they would say that it's easier to add connections than it is to remove them, which is why the plots for their hardcover serial adventures and the themes for their anthologies are so thin.

Maybe. But this could also be a charitable read on a production process that needs 10% more engagement from its lead designer on projects.

I've certainly worked on projects that didn't hang together properly, and it wasn't because it was a genius plan.

 

[Hussar]

Maybe. But this could also be a charitable read on a production process that needs 10% more engagement from its lead designer on projects.

I've certainly worked on projects that didn't hang together properly, and it wasn't because it was a genius plan.

Yeah, I'm kinda with you on this. I don't need some super deep plot with dozens of layers and huge interconnections. But, OTOH, at least a bit of a connection might be an idea. I mean, take Saltmarsh. They set up this conflict between the different factions in Saltmarsh in the intro to the adventure, then, never mention it again in the rest of the module. They could have added a couple of paragraphs to each module talking about how the outcomes of the module impact that conflict in the town instead of simply expecting the DM to write it.

And the fact that there are numerous products out there that do exactly this does show that there is at least some desire for it.

 

[O-Castitatis-Lilium]

Any module can be anything the DM wants if they are willing to put the work into it. I turned CoS into less sandbox and gave it a bit more structure. My group was a bunch of murderhobos obsessed with lighting at least one thing on fire in every town. I had Strahd sit back and watch them, keeping his distance and trying to pick out who he wanted to take over in the hope of being released from the Dark Powers That Be. When they got close enough to achieving teir goals, he set Valaki on fire, turning it to ash. They then had to backtrack a bit in order to achieve their goals and effectively ending Strahd for now.

I had it where they walked through into Barovia through an old road that was no longer used as they got turned around in the upcoming fog. They had their first encounter with some direwolves and a body that held a list of pelts they were after and they wer eto deliver them to someone in the town. So they took the pelts back as well as the body and got XP and a little gold for teir trouble. The town had the Death House in it and I had the children outside interacting with other children in the town. They had heard from the tavern/inn all the goings on in the town with some really good rolls and they had the options on what to do while there. I used some information from the original modules as well as the novels that seemed prevelent and built a very loose thread for them to follow to give them some form of direction.

I don't think any of the modules need to have a clear villian to have a clear goal. You can have a clear goal without having a main villain. As for the NPC interactions, you don't really need that either. So long as the NPCs are approachable and can offer help in some way to the players when they need it, they don't need to essentially be a PC themselves, if that makes sense. As for the open world within limits; I don't think that's needed either, you can have one, the other, or both, that truly all depends on how your players like to play. Again, you can turn any module into either a sandbox or give it some structure if you are willing to put in the time and effort into doing so lol.

 

[pukunui]

Maybe. But this could also be a charitable read on a production process that needs 10% more engagement from its lead designer on projects.

I've certainly worked on projects that didn't hang together properly, and it wasn't because it was a genius plan.

Yeah, I'm kinda with you on this. I don't need some super deep plot with dozens of layers and huge interconnections. But, OTOH, at least a bit of a connection might be an idea. I mean, take Saltmarsh. They set up this conflict between the different factions in Saltmarsh in the intro to the adventure, then, never mention it again in the rest of the module. They could have added a couple of paragraphs to each module talking about how the outcomes of the module impact that conflict in the town instead of simply expecting the DM to write it.

And the fact that there are numerous products out there that do exactly this does show that there is at least some desire for it.

I’m not saying it’s a genius plan or anything like that. I agree with you both. It would be great to have to do less work as a time-poor DM.

However, I don’t think the lack of connections are due to ignorance or oversight. Chris Perkins et al are choosing to keep things thin on purpose. They want 5e to be much more of a DIY game than either 3e or 4e were. I don’t agree with their decision, but I’ve learned to live with it.

 

[Hussar]

However, I don’t think the lack of connections are due to ignorance or oversight. Chris Perkins et al are choosing to keep things thin on purpose. They want 5e to be much more of a DIY game than either 3e or 4e were. I don’t agree with their decision, but I’ve learned to live with it.

oh for sure