D&D General Explain Bounded Accuracy to Me (As if I Was Five)

[Gammadoodler]

we should do more than just checkmarking the most basic requirements of the design goal, we should try make the experience enjoyable for anyone who wants to use the simple caster 'you get a worse experience because you want simpler mechanics' is not a good principle to qualify the design on

Sure. I'd agree with that.

I was more intending to demonstrate a "good for the goose, good for the gander" relationship between caster and martial simplicity.

Casters are complex in D&D because the designers of D&D have chosen to give them complex mechanics. No other reason.

 

[DEFCON 1]

Whether or not a spellcaster can be "simple" oftentimes comes down to just how many rules the game gives to casters the player actually engages with.

You can make a Wizard right now that uses merely a couple cantrips and a single 1st level spell that can be more powerful using higher-level slots. Sure the game allows the player to select a whole bunch more and allows the player to change out what spells they have "prepared" each and every morning... but no one HAS to do that. A "simple" Wizard just has Magic Missile prepared and the player casts nothing but Magic Missile over and over and over again, using whatever spell slots they have.

Why is that "bad"? In the minds of many people,. I suspect it's because too many of us players have this personal bugaboo wherein anytime we feel like we have to personally nerf ourselves with the rules to give us the experience we want, then we are "bad players". We aren't pulling our weight if we don't use the rules to their fullest potential. It's an ego thing. We don't want to feel like we aren't playing well by not using the tools the game provides us.

So rather than restrict things personally to create the experience we want... instead we always ask for WotC to do it for us. If THEY produce a "simple spellcaster", then we can use it happily and play that simple caster to the best of our ability under the restrictions WotC has put it under. And now you can't blame us with how the class plays... because this is what WotC has provided! It's not our fault! It's just what the class does!

For some people that excuse is preferable than having to tell their fellow players they are restricting themselves of what they can do, all because there's a gameplay loop they wish to experience.

 

[tetrasodium]

/

You are definitely not wrong. There are people like this, and at some point they become a burden too much.
However, in my own personal experience, these people whose lack of investment in the game rises to the point of being detrimental to others are right up there with these examples you are poo-pooing in terms of being incredible outliers not overly meaningful of anything grander. We can all come up with one example of each, just like we've all run into someone who is chronically absent at work for legitimate reasons; and one who is chronically absent without said reasons (possibly a third example being someone who always has a good excuse, but you don't really believe it or it sure seems like they must seek out chaos to live such a life). I've just not found them to be in the top 10 or top dozen types of players who frustrate a game. I take it your experience differs?

Does that bold bit matter? It's hard to see how when the discussion immediately crashed into & never moved past if it's even reasonable to ever criticize someone who is negatively impacting the fun of others at the table with their behavior or not because it could possibly be a case where there could possibly be a good reason or that it could possibly have been a momentary lapse? When there is a strong effort to ensure that the answer is always "no never reasonable until proven 110% otherwise" it becomes an unreasonable burden to even discuss it with that underlined group without getting sandbagged by the defense of something else that drags that criticism into the weeds to be strangled.

 

[Thomas Shey]

Whether or not a spellcaster can be "simple" oftentimes comes down to just how many rules the game gives to casters the player actually engages with.

You can make a Wizard right now that uses merely a couple cantrips and a single 1st level spell that can be more powerful using higher-level slots. Sure the game allows the player to select a whole bunch more and allows the player to change out what spells they have "prepared" each and every morning... but no one HAS to do that. A "simple" Wizard just has Magic Missile prepared and the player casts nothing but Magic Missile over and over and over again, using whatever spell slots they have.

Why is that "bad"? In the minds of many people,. I suspect it's because too many of us players have this personal bugaboo wherein anytime we feel like we have to personally nerf ourselves with the rules to give us the experience we want, then we are "bad players". We aren't pulling our weight if we don't use the rules to their fullest potential. It's an ego thing. We don't want to feel like we aren't playing well by not using the tools the game provides us.

Well, it also depends on how viable the uplevelled Magic Missile is relative to other things you can (and are expected to) do. Often arcanists are expected to be the people who mop up groups of opponents of lesser magnitude. If there's such an expectation and all you do is something that's a reliable single target damage causer (which is what MM has been in most D&D versions and offshoots) you can run into planning and expectation problems.

So rather than restrict things personally to create the experience we want... instead we always ask for WotC to do it for us. If THEY produce a "simple spellcaster", then we can use it happily and play that simple caster to the best of our ability under the restrictions WotC has put it under. And now you can't blame us with how the class plays... because this is what WotC has provided! It's not our fault! It's just what the class does!

Though it also sets expectations. The hypothetical Missile Launcher class is something everyone knows isn't going to be throwing Fireball at any point, so they don't plan around it (including the GM). When its simply a choice, there can be stressors on that.

For some people that excuse is preferable than having to tell their fellow players they are restricting themselves of what they can do, all because there's a gameplay loop they wish to experience.

We're kind of saying the same thing.

 

[Crimson Longinus]

People should play with people with similar mindsets. Personally to me a player who is angry at others because they do not play the elfgame optimally enough is a bigger red flag than someone who is forgetting rules occasionally.

 

[Gammadoodler]

Whether or not a spellcaster can be "simple" oftentimes comes down to just how many rules the game gives to casters the player actually engages with.

You can make a Wizard right now that uses merely a couple cantrips and a single 1st level spell that can be more powerful using higher-level slots. Sure the game allows the player to select a whole bunch more and allows the player to change out what spells they have "prepared" each and every morning... but no one HAS to do that. A "simple" Wizard just has Magic Missile prepared and the player casts nothing but Magic Missile over and over and over again, using whatever spell slots they have.

Why is that "bad"? In the minds of many people,. I suspect it's because too many of us players have this personal bugaboo wherein anytime we feel like we have to personally nerf ourselves with the rules to give us the experience we want, then we are "bad players". We aren't pulling our weight if we don't use the rules to their fullest potential. It's an ego thing. We don't want to feel like we aren't playing well by not using the tools the game provides us.

So rather than restrict things personally to create the experience we want... instead we always ask for WotC to do it for us. If THEY produce a "simple spellcaster", then we can use it happily and play that simple caster to the best of our ability under the restrictions WotC has put it under. And now you can't blame us with how the class plays... because this is what WotC has provided! It's not our fault! It's just what the class does!

For some people that excuse is preferable than having to tell their fellow players they are restricting themselves of what they can do, all because there's a gameplay loop they wish to experience.

The wizard who only casts magic missile in all their spells slots still would have to keep track of how many spells slots they've used and, when they use it, how much the dice change from upcasting.

Even when if we want to nerf ourselves to the ground for simplicity's sake, the system attempts to confound us.

 

[ezo]

I've just not found them to be in the top 10 or top dozen types of players who frustrate a game. I take it your experience differs?

Well, I'm not certain what dozen (or so) type of players who frustrate a game you mean? Could you please elaborate? Thanks.

 

[Crimson Longinus]

Warlock is pretty simple. Spell slots are much easier to track, and you can choose invocations that just give passive bonuses.

 

[ezo]

People should play with people with similar mindsets.

Agreed, to a point. Often times the best games come with different mindsets. That being said, I understand your point and am not refuting it.

Personally to me a player who is angry at others because they do not play the elfgame optimally enough is a bigger red flag than someone who is forgetting rules occasionally.

"Angry" is a key word here. Obviously, especially with newer players, offering more optimal "advice" is a granted, because the other player hopes it will enhance the new player's game experience.

But retorts such as "Your character's an archer! Why would you take Athletic as your feat instead of Sharpshooter!?! I told you how much better Sharpshooter is, you should change it."

compared to

"Well, your character's an archer, so Sharpshooter is mechanically a great feat, one of the best, but if you're thinking Athletic you might enjoy that, too. It could help you move into perches to shoot from if you have a better climbing speed."

Suggestive, constructive criticism and advice is one thing, berating is another.

 

[Maxperson]

This is a classic example of why the game always needs at least one dirt-simple class that doesn't require any mechanical input from the player because everything's baked in. All the player has to do is roleplay, and roll dice when asked to.

And for years all he played were fighters and rogues, but he has since expanded into spellcasters which he really enjoys.