D&D General One thing I hate about the Sorcerer

I can see that. I got really annoyed when looking for a psion and get told "just play a sorcerer and call it psionic." Classes should mean something, but I also feel they should not be straightjackets. I would not want to go back to a 2e-level where classes had specific role-playing elements to it (such as paladin, druid, or ranger).
I believe in the 97% rule.

Basically 97% of the members of a class follow the metaphysics of their class's mechanic and are examples or direct subversions of their class's top 5 stories.

If a player decides to roleplay a character that solely uses the class as a vehicle for the class mechanics for a completely new story, they
  • Can't expect to find other beings that have the same lore or story
  • Can't expect the NPC to not still treat them with the same expectations and stereotypes of members of their class
  • Can't assume the world's lore to alter itself to make the PC's backstory more normal.
Because only 3% of members of a class have a completely new background for the class.


For example, if you are a patronless pactless warlock, everyone will still treat you as if you have a patron. People who know what warlocks are will believe you ave a patron and it will be one you to convince them you don't have a hidden master. 97% of warlocks you meet will have patrons and a pact. And if you convince people you actually don't have a patron or pact, patrons and warlocks will get into your business to find out how you got warlock powers without a pact and patron.
 

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For example, if you are a patronless pactless warlock, everyone will still treat you as if you have a patron. People who know what warlocks are will believe you ave a patron and it will be one you to convince them you don't have a hidden master. 97% of warlocks you meet will have patrons and a pact. And if you convince people you actually don't have a patron or pact, patrons and warlocks will get into your business to find out how you got warlock powers without a pact and patron.

Sound view point but I caught myself on this part.

I like the Warlock conceptually, one without a Patron/Pact...seems just so flawed, but I dont have a problem with some baked in assumptions when it comes to classes. Paladins and their Oath, Clerics and their Gods, Druids/Rangers being in some way related to or working with/against Nature...things like that just seem so much part of the class identity.

I know I know, 5e moved away from stuff like that, but it doesnt work for me at all.

A Warlock without a Patron...
 

In XGTE: the started arcane origins for sorcerer are

  1. Being a member of a magical bloodline
  2. Reincarnation of a being from another plane
  3. Changed by the entrance of a powerful magical being
  4. Being the chosen one of a prophesy
  5. Being the product of selective breeding
  6. Created a vat by an alchemist
So even by WOTC's standards, sorcerers would rarely get magic from a random magical event or by the direct involvement of a magical being such as a pact.

They assume you are either born magical or born destined to encounter a specific magical accident.

Mini-pacts and random magic event seem to be excuses for PCs who have something happen to then and multiclass into sorcerer. You got ightning bolted 3 times and can not multiclass in storm sorcerer.
 

Sound view point but I caught myself on this part.

I like the Warlock conceptually, one without a Patron/Pact...seems just so flawed, but I dont have a problem with some baked in assumptions when it comes to classes. Paladins and their Oath, Clerics and their Gods, Druids/Rangers being in some way related to or working with/against Nature...things like that just seem so much part of the class identity.

I know I know, 5e moved away from stuff like that, but it doesnt work for me at all.

A Warlock without a Patron...
It's less 5e is moving against it as much as more people assume the special case is the normal case.

Your patronless warlock or godless cleric in a standard setting is rare. You can play one but don't expect to see other ones and don't expect the beckground support like cults and churches like the normal one.
 

It's less 5e is moving against it as much as more people assume the special case is the normal case.

Your patronless warlock or godless cleric in a standard setting is rare. You can play one but don't expect to see other ones and don't expect the beckground support like cults and churches like the normal one.

Yeah I would personally just not allow either, but I think Warlocks need to have Patron/Pact 'system' bound right into the class. Want to be a Patron/God free Warlock/Cleric? -> Sorcerer.
 

Here's a random but related question.

When you play, do you prefer characters who adhere to tropes, or do you prefer characters who violate them?

Likewise, what do you prefer when you're DMing?
Yes, and yes.

Tropes are tools. If you always follow them to a T, things become stale. But if you always violate them no matter what, then the subversion itself becomes a new trope--and becomes stale in the process.

For example, I have a Court Vizier (effectively "Prime Minister") in the city of Al-Rakkah. One of the things widely known about this man, Zaid al-Ansari, is that he may be a slimy businessman, he may be very intent on always getting the better end of a deal when it's his money on the line...but he has a reputation for being a genuine patriot and putting the good of the city first in his political dealings. He served as Regent for several years while the current Sultana was growing up (her senile-and-dangerous father had been assassinated when she was only ~12, so she needed a regent for a few years), after which he freely stepped down from that role. I find the "Court Vizier is always a scheming, conniving, backstabbing snake" trope incredibly tired and boring. So I...didn't do that. I have always left open the possibility that there's more to his loyalty than meets the eye, but in general, the more interesting story has been to portray him as altogether human in different ways, ones that invite the PCs' help rather than their ire.

Likewise...as a religious person myself, it gets pretty grating to see that religious people are so often portrayed as all Secretly Evil, unless they're the local parish priest who has no contact with the hierarchy. So I didn't do that. There are good priests and bad priests--and the Priesthood has a VERY serious internal police force (the Asiad al-Khafyun, the "Hidden Masters") who have very low tolerance for priests who abuse the power vested in them to hurt others.

But there are other tropes that I've played fully straight, like noble genies being manipulative bastards who use careful wording to lie to people in order to get what they want. Or wizards (Waziri) mostly being officious bureaucratic academics who go through a year's supply of red tape in under five minutes....and, often, being highly ambitious and driven to doing terrible things seeking success. As a player, for example, I love just playing genuine, unabashed good guy Paladins. Not Lawful Stupid moral policemen, but sincere "knight in shining armor," cares-for-the-downtrodden, Superman-esque good people who go out into the darkness to save people from it, because they know they can, and not doing the right thing when you know you can do it is not tolerable.

I like subversions when they create interesting new story by breathing life into well-trodden concepts. I get extremely tired of so-called "subversions" that have so thoroughly displaced the original that choosing not to do the subversion actually surprises people.
 

I always want to put an asterisk on the "no jokes or memes" point.

Like, sure, I don't want someone who is playing a sentient sandwich. That would be annoying.

But, I'm also listening to a podcast DnD game (Fool's Gold: Sands) where the two characters are... kind of joke characters. A half djinni chaos gremlin who is played for the purpose of making jokes, and a demon cleric who is the dumb stoic "straightman" who is also played for jokes. But... the story WORKS. And I've had people who played "serious" characters who have been bad characters for jokes or memes [A dragonborn paladin who had a serious backstory, and also wanted to where a hat of spaghetti to a king's fancy dinner party].

I think, for me, what it really comes down to, is the timing of the joke.

I'm currently playing a Rogue who is a murder doll who got a soul, sort of a mix between Chucky and the Velveteen Rabbit. I'm playing it into memes and jokes sometimes, with the intent of being the creepy doll child. There is a meme behind it, jokes and I'm playing it for laughs, but I also know when to make a joke and when to be serious. Because silly joke characters can have EPIC scenes, if the player knows how to utilize their timing correctly.
i think you can have joke characters BUT when all is said and done there needs to be more to them than JUST the joke or reference, you can have your ginger tabaxi rogue with a rapier and spanish accent but do more with them than just quoting puss in boots lines and making shrek references.
 

In XGTE: the started arcane origins for sorcerer are

  1. Being a member of a magical bloodline
  2. Reincarnation of a being from another plane
  3. Changed by the entrance of a powerful magical being
  4. Being the chosen one of a prophesy
  5. Being the product of selective breeding
  6. Created a vat by an alchemist
So even by WOTC's standards, sorcerers would rarely get magic from a random magical event or by the direct involvement of a magical being such as a pact.

They assume you are either born magical or born destined to encounter a specific magical accident.

Mini-pacts and random magic event seem to be excuses for PCs who have something happen to then and multiclass into sorcerer. You got ightning bolted 3 times and can not multiclass in storm sorcerer.
In my Ravenloft game, I have a reborn shadow sorcerer who made a pact with Baron Samedi to return to the land of the living. Doing so awakened his sorcery. It's a side effect of the pact, not the pact itself that gave him magic.
 

Yeah I would personally just not allow either, but I think Warlocks need to have Patron/Pact 'system' bound right into the class. Want to be a Patron/God free Warlock/Cleric? -> Sorcerer.
I might consider something akin to a character who made a pact with an entity who does not know or care about the warlock. Most GOO locks run on this idea, it's not like Cthulhu is going to be signing contacts and making demands of you. I could even see a character who wasn't in control of how the pact was made (such as a parent offering their first born to the Fey).

Then again, I don't like the "patron has the power to revoke the pact and screw the warlock" any more than I do for clerics, paladins and druids. I am WELL past the "play nice or the DM will remove your class" era of D&D...
 

In my Ravenloft game, I have a reborn shadow sorcerer who made a pact with Baron Samedi to return to the land of the living. Doing so awakened his sorcery. It's a side effect of the pact, not the pact itself that gave him magic.
In the old days WOTC would have named the various pacts type and sold use a class or feat or race for each.

Warlock Pack- For Warlock Class
Hexblade Pact-For Hexblade Class
Eldritch- Pact- For Eldritch Initiate feat
Resurrection Pact- For Resurrection
 

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