D&D General One thing I hate about the Sorcerer

Chaosmancer

Legend
Orcs can lift heavier things than a human of equivalent "strength". What else makes them supernatural?

You were asking for an explanation for why someone could be stronger than a human. You said that just weight training wasn't enough. Now you've said that Orcs can lift more than a human, so... is that not enough? What more do you need for an explanation of greater than human strength than being a person acknowledged to have greater than human strength?

But fine, what else makes them supernatural? They can tank a single blow from just about anything. An orc hit with a missile would survive. Does durability not count as supernatural in that case either?
 

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Chaosmancer

Legend
I was going to respond to someone, but I think this point gets made better in isolation. Because there is a fundamental problem with the claim that martial skill cannot rise to the level of "supernatural" effects.

Wizards.

Stop and consider for a moment how a wizard is defined in Dungeons and Dragons. Are wizards innately supernatural? No. Wizards learn a skill. Magic in DnD is a learned skill, just like dance or music or biology or archeology. There are of course many other ways that magic can be achieved, but our default understanding of the wizard is that they learn a skill.

However, then we turn around and say that a Fighter who learns a skill CANNOT achieve a "supernatural" effect. A fighter needs an explanation, because skill alone isn't enough to become supernatural... like wizards are? But wizardry is a learned skill. A street urchin can find a magical textbook, and practice to learn wizardry, just like they could practice to learn medicine, or practice the arts of war. Monks are supernatural, but it is skill and training.

So... this thing people say cannot possibly work in DnD.... is exactly how DnD works. You can become so skilled at math and physics that you can fly. You can become so skilled at punching and breathing that you can teleport. Why can't you become so skilled with a sword that you can cut something your blade didn't touch?
 

Micah Sweet

Level Up & OSR Enthusiast
i'd rather martials were designed to be 'extraordinary' rather than 'supernatural', an exaggeration of what's possible with real world physics, you can produce wind pressure by swinging a sword IRL if only a little, enhancing that to produce a tangible damaging effect feels like it should be possible in fantasyland without justifying it with some form of magic to me.

again, ancient dragons manage to exist without using magic to prevent themselves crumpling under their own weight, i don't see why martials don't get that same fantasy world suspension of disbelief for their strength and abilities.
Ancient dragons are obviously magical creatures. They can't exist at all without denying the laws of physics. Humans of course can do so.

I'm all for mundane developing abilities that go beyond what reality allows, but they are simply no longer mundane when that happens. I don't want high-level fighters to be dispel-able, I want them to be labeled as supernatural, because that's what they are.
 

Micah Sweet

Level Up & OSR Enthusiast
Hate it or not, it is hard to deny that it is a supernatural effect that Rogues can achieve. The question wasn't whether or not you liked it, after all.
Which is why I said you had a good point. I consider it and things like it an a design shift away from what I'd prefer, and a jarring one at that when I come across it.
 

Micah Sweet

Level Up & OSR Enthusiast
They don't actually. From the 5e Sage Advice.

"You might be thinking, “Dragons seem pretty magical to me.” And yes, they are extraordinary! Their description even says they’re magical. But our game makes a distinction between two types of magic:
• the background magic that is part of the D&D multiverse’s physics and the physiology of many D&D creatures.
• the concentrated magical energy that is contained in a magic item or channeled.

In D&D, the first type of magic is part of nature. It is no more dispellable than the wind. A monster like a dragon exists because of that magic-enhanced nature. The second type of magic is what the rules are concerned about. "

When the fighter gets to that point he is engaging the background magic that is part of the D&D multiverse's physics, creating a supernatural ability to swing a sword and cut things from 20 feet away. It's the non-traditional magic that 4e talks about.
That sage advice would have been a great thing to have in the PH, especially since Crawford claimed the game makes that distinction even though it is printed nowhere in the game.
 

Micah Sweet

Level Up & OSR Enthusiast
From a narrative perspective, I hate this ability. But as a rogue player who remembers how squishy TSR thieves were, I find it a necessary ability. It's kinda that perfect example of the "cinematic martial" problem; it requires a lot of narrative justification every time it's used and it's hard to not find that justification without nerfing the class. I'd rather a rogue be able to disappear into the plane if Shadow for a moment to avoid damage than have them summon a table to dive behind, but I would hate to have the ability removed.
It is very useful, and I get why players want to keep it, but I desperately wish it had a non-gamist explanation. Just about anything will do. Every time someone uses it it snaps my reality suspenders.
 

Micah Sweet

Level Up & OSR Enthusiast
I had thought you weren't much of an FR guy. Or is this about Dark Sun?


Or we could recognize it as planting a flag and being a turning point. It's not like 3e hadn't presaged (or should I say preswordsaged) this development with the Book of Nine Swords, and PF's ample 3PP has continued that trend. Having martial people who can do things that aren't strictly natural is not alien anymore. It's represented, in a lot of things.


And I don't. What he does is achievable by ordinary humans in his reality. It's just that the vast, vast majority of ordinary humans do not have the actual superpower he possesses, which is his inviolate iron will. (It doesn't hurt that he's also a genius, an Olympic-level athlete, and incredibly charismatic, of course.) Other humans COULD do what he does, and a small number (Oliver Queen/Green Arrow, Selina Kyle/Catwoman, Ben Turner/Bronze Tiger, Dick Grayson/Nightwing, Jim Harper/Guardian, Charles Szasz/The Question, Ted Kord/Blue Beetle, Ted Grant/Wildcat, Helena Bertinelli/Huntress, Sandra Wu-San/Lady Shiva, Richard Drakunovski/Dragon) do more or less the same sort of thing, with variations. Some of them are wealthy (e.g. Queen, Kyle, Grayson), some are highly intelligent (Szasz, Kord), some are Eastern or Western martial arts masters (Turner, Grant, Wu-San, Drakunovski), some are acrobats or (ex-)thieves (Kyle, Grayson, Drakunovski), etc. All are presented as being otherwise-ordinary humans with high dedication, and training that any similarly dedicated, healthy human could complete.


Potayto, potahto. You say it "doesn't exist." I say it's still absolutely there the whole time--it's just that being "mundane" doesn't mean "weak" or "limited" or "incapable" or "restricted."


That's...that's what I said though. To such folks, transcending the limits means you've ceased to be mundane. You are now supernatural. Period. Whatever you were before, you're supernatural now.

That's something I reject. I think someone can still be mundane--still only be using the tools and skills and such that a healthy, dedicated person could learn naturally--but have achieved a degree of skill with those things that surpasses what limits our feeble understanding projects onto them. "There are more things in heaven and Earth, Horatio, / Than are dreamt of in your philosophy."


That is in fact how the word "supernatural" is used in a D&D context, yes. Anything supernatural is necessarily magical. It may not be spellcasting, but it's definitely magical in some way. You can thank 3e for that; that's how [Su] powers are defined. If you're going to tell me that transcendental mundane powers are "supernatural," I cannot--ever--accept, unless we also re-define "supernatural" in a way that...includes everything natural, which kind of defeats the point.

I still maintain, however, that there is a difference between the transmundane and the supernatural. The latter is spooky-action-at-a-distance stuff. The former retains extremely relevant characteristics from its mundanity. It is still linked in some meaningful way to physical action. "Research" or "meditation" alone cannot advance it, only practice and skill development can do that (though it doesn't hurt to do your research, of course). It cannot be transferred to another in any way other than imparting a lesson and then having the student drill on those lessons. It cannot be limited by any of the things which would normally stop or forestall supernatural powers (e.g. it is completely immune to any form of "antimagic field" or "dead magic zone" or the like). Etc.
First of all, has martial power actually been a turning point in D&D since 4e? Its been 10 years and the game hasn't turned in that direction yet.

Secondly, how is your definition of "supernatural" any less subjective than anyone else's?
 

TwoSix

Master of the One True Way
That is in fact how the word "supernatural" is used in a D&D context, yes. Anything supernatural is necessarily magical. It may not be spellcasting, but it's definitely magical in some way. You can thank 3e for that; that's how [Su] powers are defined. If you're going to tell me that transcendental mundane powers are "supernatural," I cannot--ever--accept, unless we also re-define "supernatural" in a way that...includes everything natural, which kind of defeats the point.
I mean, supernatural really only has meaning when viewing a work of fiction. If something actually happens within the fiction, that it can't be supernatural within the definition of the setting. Wizards aren't supernatural within the Forgotten Realms, because being able to cast "magic" is how nature works.

I still maintain, however, that there is a difference between the transmundane and the supernatural. The latter is spooky-action-at-a-distance stuff. The former retains extremely relevant characteristics from its mundanity. It is still linked in some meaningful way to physical action. "Research" or "meditation" alone cannot advance it, only practice and skill development can do that (though it doesn't hurt to do your research, of course). It cannot be transferred to another in any way other than imparting a lesson and then having the student drill on those lessons. It cannot be limited by any of the things which would normally stop or forestall supernatural powers (e.g. it is completely immune to any form of "antimagic field" or "dead magic zone" or the like). Etc.
Ultimately, it's just semantics, and I don't think it really has much of an impact, as long as everyone involved can agree to let the character function as the player intends. If you view your shockwave generating teleporting fighter as "transmundane", and I view it as "supernatural", as long as we both agree on how it will be narrated, we're fine.

As I said above, I view "martial powered" characters like I view dragons; you can't counterspell then or antimagic field them because they're "supernatural" but not "magical".

Edit: Looks like Crawford agrees with me. If I had a nickel for every time Crawford has supported my arguments, I'd have two nickels. Which isn't a lot, but it's weird that it's happened twice.
 

Micah Sweet

Level Up & OSR Enthusiast
okay yes, you're right, the dragon is technically 'using magic' and i could've worded my post better if i'd thought to, but they're not Using Magic in the same way a wizard or suchlike does is my point, it may be more accurate to say the existence of magic facilitates the dragon not crumpling, in the same way i think it should be assumed that magic facilitates various martial's extraordinary feats of strength, skill and toughness, so unless you are getting into technical definitions i think it's accurate to say for the casual definition that the dragon and the fighter aren't really using magic.
Again, the game doesn't say magic facilitates anything a martial does. You can't just assume it so mundane characters can do non-mundane things without changing the verbage.
 

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