D&D 5E Why is There No Warlord Equivalent in 5E?

[Yaarel]

Can't have it both ways.
Can't say the official meanings are bad and never read them.

When official rules actually contradict each other, players can pick and choose which they prefer.

If someone says they don't get it but ignores the Active INT and Passive WIS explanation most most editions give, that's on them.

In gameplay, Passive Wisdom is strictly the five senses − did the character see it at all, or hear that faint sound, or catch a whiff of that ancient odor.

 

[Paul Farquhar]

In gameplay, Passive Wisdom is strictly the five senses − did the character see it at all, or hear that faint sound, or catch a whiff of that ancient odor.

Noticing something isn't just a matter of having functional sense organs. You also have to be paying attention.

 

[Yaarel]

Noticing something isn't just a matter of having functional sense organs. You also have to be paying attention.

Sure, but paying attention to what is around me doesnt mean I always understand what I am looking at.

For example, if I see something in the dark, it might take a moment to figure out what it is that I am looking at, and this would be an Intelligence check.

Similarly, if I am looking at artwork, there might be part of an image that "reads" unclearly.

 

[Paul Farquhar]

Sure, but paying attention to what is around me doesnt mean I always understand what I am looking at.

If you aren't paying attention you don't see it at all.

For example, if I see something in the dark, it might take a moment to figure out what it is that I am looking at, and this would be an Intelligence check.

No. D&D Intelligence is specifically limited to calculation and recall. And if you are in a warzone, what matters is deciding instantly whether something is a threat or not. If you take the time to decide exactly what it is you are looking at you are already dead.

Similarly, if I am looking at artwork, there might be part of an image that "reads" unclearly.

Understanding art is amount the emotional response. You need to understand how it makes you feel. If you are trying to work out what it depicts, then you have already failed.

 

[Yaarel]

If you aren't paying attention you don't see it at all.

No, disagreement.

Indeed, the trope of the "absent minded professor" is precisely intelligent but unaware.

No. D&D Intelligence is specifically limited to calculation and recall.

D&D Intelligence is "knowledge skill checks". How one got this information can be by any means. Most of it doesnt come from books, nor calculation and recall. Much of the times characters are figuring out something that one is unfamiliar with, including by means of intuition.

Understanding art is amount the emotional response. You need to understand how it makes you feel. If you are trying to work out what it depicts, then you have already failed.

I mean literally trying to understand what is in a picture, like something turning out to be the fabric of a piece of clothing, or whatever.

 

[Clint_L]

4E was a different game, at a different time, and the people playing it were different. This is like saying limiting females to a lower strength must be popular because those were the rules during the heyday of 1E, which is the only version that was comparable to 5E in sales. Despite being objectively biased, that was as a point of fact popular in 1980 and would be VERY unpopular today.

It really was not popular in 1980. We all thought it was dumb. Even Gygax was on the record that he didn't agree with it and didn't use it in his own games.

But I agree with your wider point that times change, and something that worked ten years ago might not work today. I very much agree that Warlord was designed for a very different version of the game and owed a lot to CRPG class design that 5e emphatically rejected. I don't see a pure support class ever being part of the official 5e ruleset; it's antithetical to a core design principle.

 

[Paul Farquhar]

D&D Intelligence is "knowledge skill checks". How one got this information can be by any means.

Nope. In my experience, most Intelligence checks are "roll to see if you remember anything about mummy rot". Recall. It's the stat known as Education in Traveller.

I mean literally trying to understand what is in a picture, like something turning out to be the fabric of a piece of clothing, or whatever.

That has nothing to do with art, and that kind of visual processing (something AI struggles with) isn't actually covered by D&D Intelligence or Wisdom. Largely because it has no in game application. Golems are magic, we assume they are magically able to do it like humans can. When a DM gives a description all players get the same description. There are not different descriptions based on ability scores. All PCs are equal in that regard. (On the other hand, players might not be. They may have different language-processing abilities, and therefore pick up different things from the description).

 

[GrimCo]

I very much agree that Warlord was designed for a very different version of the game and owed a lot to CRPG class design that 5e emphatically rejected. I don't see a pure support class ever being part of the official 5e ruleset; it's antithetical to a core design principle.

Yup. 4th edition was heavily influenced by MMORPGs. It's reflection of that time. When 4th came out, WoW was around it's peak popularity and 4th tried to capture some of the that game feel cause there was a large overlap between d&d and wow player base. In that context, pure support class had lot of sense. Mmoification was ironicly one of the main reasons why some dnd players hated 4th ed, even if they were awid WoW players.

5th is more similar to moba games. While it's still team game, every hero goes on it's own lane.

 

[Yaarel]

Nope. In my experience, most Intelligence checks are "roll to see if you remember anything about mummy rot". Recall. It's the stat known as Education in Traveller.

I dont play Traveller.

I play D&D.

That has nothing to do with art, and that kind of visual processing (something AI struggles with) isn't actually covered by D&D Intelligence or Wisdom.

It does matter. A character might notice odd patterns in a wall, but not recognize this means the building is about to collapse. Or whatever. Detection of the sensory data is separate from knowledge and understanding.

Largely because it has no in game application. Golems are magic, we assume they are magically able to do it like humans can. When a DM gives a description all players get the same description. There are not different descriptions based on ability scores. All PCs are equal in that regard. (On the other hand, players might not be. They may have different language-processing abilities, and therefore pick up different things from the description).

Mechanics are what matter for a game.

 

[cbwjm]

One of the things I was looking forward to, and I was surprised when it didn't really eventuate, was a crpg using 4e as the base. They'd created a perfect game for the transition to computer games and they did pretty much nothing with it. It would have worked great as something similar to those jrpgs with bursts and squares moved, etc.