D&D 5E D&D is a drag race, think of climbing as a cantrip, and the rogue would be better at lock picking if it could only pick a few locks per day.

3 Thoughts:

•That sounds like 4th Edition.
Yes. 4E understood that it's difficult to mix free abilities with costly abilities since it's easy to get caught up in the idea that a free ability must be worse than a costly ability.

•Wizards can learn how to pick locks
Yes? I think, since wizards are already allowed to be better than pretty much all other classes at whatever they are designed to be good at, I think it's fair that we say that eh perhaps the wizard should actually be forced to suck at skills? (except knowledge skills: wizards should be the gods of magic and monster lore)

•In your mind, what is going on in the fiction when someone needs to swing a sword or pick a lock but they have no more uses that day?
I dunno. The sword swinging thing has already been covered by the Battle Master. Lock picking is a bit more unusual, but note that I'm not proposing this as an actual "fix" to the system. My whole OP could also be interpreted like this:

Perhaps it's bad that we allow class X to trump class Y by using spells and perhaps we should ignore the "cost" component when balancing the classes. Don't let a caster with a spell do what a martial can, even if the spell is more expensive.
 

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Perhaps it's bad that we allow class X to trump class Y by using spells and perhaps we should ignore the "cost" component when balancing the classes. Don't let a caster with a spell do what a martial can, even if the spell is more expensive.
But that's already the case in 5E: a costly Spell slot will let a magic user briefly do something, pretty much always worse than the martial option gets for free.
 

Perhaps it's bad that we allow class X to trump class Y by using spells and perhaps we should ignore the "cost" component when balancing the classes. Don't let a caster with a spell do what a martial can, even if the spell is more expensive.
Your summation here makes sense for the point you are trying to make. So if we use this as the jumping off point for the discussion-- Don't let a caster with a spell do what a martial can-- then we can debate.

My own opinion is that if you don't allow multiple methods for solving problems be in the game... then you are requiring that every table have that one method. In the lockpicking example... having Knock as a spell means that a table isn't required to have a character that has proficiency in Thieves' Tools (if getting past locks is important to the game.) Likewise, in a game like Pathfinder, no one was required to have a high skill rank in Linguistics if you didn't want to, what with having the Comprehend Languages spell potentially available to them. Or if there is no one at the table who wishes to play a high-CHA character in a game that can use Persuasion, you have Charm Person available as needed.

But the reverse is also true... no spellcaster HAS to prepare any of these spells if there are other members of the party who can accomplish the same thing. And while yes, there's a chance that a character could "fail" per se at the lockpicking or understanding a foreign language, or persuasion... failing rolls is a part of the game. So why would anyone at the table care? No one should be getting pissed off that a PCs Persuasion check was low and thus start screaming "WHY THE HELL DID WE NOT HAVE THE WIZARD CHARM THE GUY?!?" That's just dumb. Characters fail rolls all the time in D&D... so just because there might have been a work-around via a spell had the table wished to go in that direction... any mature person will recognize that its completely okay when the table chooses not to.

We don't need to "win" all the time. And the person who demands that the Wizard have anything and everything prepared so that the Wizard CAN "win" all the time and never have a failing situation is not a person to be taken seriously.
 

But that's already the case in 5E: a costly Spell slot will let a magic user briefly do something, pretty much always worse than the martial option gets for free.
With the exception of attacking, spells are pretty much superior. The only downside to spells is the cost, which is the point of the first post in this thread.
  • Want to get across a chasm? Dimension Door, Teleport, Wall of Force, Wall of Stone
  • Want to jump somewhere? Use the Jump spell (better than standard jumping) or use Misty Step or any of the other teleport spells.
  • Want to climb? Use spider climb (better than standard climbing, though it depends on how heavily the GM penalises failed rolls)
  • Want to get a message quickly somewhere. Use the Sending spell. This point relates hilariously back to that other thread where a number of people are discussing how the martial option (using a background ability) should be as weak as possible.
  • Want to breathe under water? Use Water Breathing.
What?
 

,,,

What?

Longer version of "nope"? :cautious:

Okay. I disagree with your basic premise. There is absolutely no reason a rogue could not open multiple locks per day, it defies all real world logic. Call a locksmith because you lost your keys? Sorry, call back tomorrow I already did that for the day.

You want to put some hypothetical game "balance" ahead of the rules representation of the fiction that the characters can achieve. This was one of my biggest issues with 4E, that rules designed for balance mattered more than implementing game rules for people living in a fantasy world. I know that if I were a trained locksmith that I could easily open one lock right after another. Perhaps I couldn't do a complex lock in a few seconds, there may be extremely advanced locks I couldn't get through at all. But even in that latter case there's no justification for me being able to only open that lock once per day. At a certain point either I can achieve a task with the tools and training that I have or I can't.

Personally I generally handle lock picking as "can you open this lock quickly" and if the PC fails it just takes additional time to open it because it's more difficult than expected. Spells work differently because they are part of a limited resource. If there's an issue with martials being underpowered compared to casters (something I don't agree with) the solution is not to make martials into casters by another name.

You're putting the cart before the horse. Then shooting the horse.
 

I've made the same point before, though with a somewhat different conclusion. The usual point here is "we should run spells through the skill system somehow, so everyone is on a similar playing field," which I think is exactly backwards. There's two things that are at play here.

Spells are a better game: Assigning limited resources to overcome obstacles is a more interesting gameplay loop than rolling dice for a chance the problem is resolved. Spells are proactive, in that you have to decide to use them and consistent. They let players set the terms of an engagement, both by deciding what problems their resources are best spent on, and by allowing players to shape the board before a given obstacle even arises.

If your goal was just to build an exploration game from scratch and you could only have a spell or skill system, your game would be more engaging if you went for spells. Skills aren't generally a player deployed mechanic, they're a reactive defaulting system. You're not using a Stealth check or a Persuasion check, you're trying an action, and if you don't have a resource you can expend to make it happen, you default to rolling against a % chance of success.

Mundanity is defined by interaction with default systems: Here you get to the aesthetic problem. We've come to define magic as exceptions to the defaulting system, and mundanity as using the defaulting system, and the association is incredibly hard to break. Normal "skill" has to be slotted into the same portion of your rules that defines actions taken without expenditure, and use the same % chance to activate resolution, or it is no longer perceived as a function of skill.

With that in mind, I think the best way to express mundane skill while allowing access to the more engaging resource expenditure game is a two-pronged design. You start by putting more abilities into the defaulting system explicitly. Make it clear what a character can climb with what check results, and then ensure you have more powerful options at the higher end outside the RNG for the range in which they're level appropriate. That is, when characters are expected to have +3-5 mods, set a DC 25 ability to move full speed while climbing, or sense emotions so well you get surface thoughts or whatever.

Then provide your mundane characters with skill modifying abilities in their character class. Rogues can use a pool of focus points to modify their checks, or fighters can exert themselves X/times per day, etc. You can also add in character class specific abilities you want, as additional skill uses you unlock with a class ability (the classic example being a rogue specific ability to open magical locks, perhaps taken to the more useful "dispel magic through interaction") or perhaps through allowing skill swaps, so actions can be taken with a different skill than normal.

Fundamentally, the game is better off if players have abilities that do things and those abilities have an associated cost. The game then becomes about deploying those resources at the right times, to greatest effect. Then, when characters don't use resources and to differentiate characters with exceptional abilities (which I would argue, should be all of them) you do want the default resolution system provided by skills to tell you what happens when they aren't spending resources to conqueror obstacles.

Edit: Here's something I wrote about this a few years ago elsewhere that I think neatly summarizes the point.

The tl;dr is that we should probably demote skills to the thing you only use when you're not spending class abilities, and if the rogue/fighter can't survive that, we should cheat and put some portion of their class abilities in the skill system.
 
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With the exception of attacking, spells are pretty much superior. The only downside to spells is the cost, which is the point of the first post in this thread.
  • Want to get across a chasm? Dimension Door, Teleport, Wall of Force, Wall of Stone
  • Want to jump somewhere? Use the Jump spell (better than standard jumping) or use Misty Step or any of the other teleport spells.
  • Want to climb? Use spider climb (better than standard climbing, though it depends on how heavily the GM penalises failed rolls)
  • Want to get a message quickly somewhere. Use the Sending spell. This point relates hilariously back to that other thread where a number of people are discussing how the martial option (using a background ability) should be as weak as possible.
  • Want to breathe under water? Use Water Breathing.

What?
These are all valid points. Yes, a spellcaster could do any of these things. But there are indeed more downsides besides cost here.

Dimension Door, Teleport, Wall of Force, Wall of Stone are all high-level spells, so meaningless to a low-level party.

Jump and Spider Climb only help one person, they do not help the party. So unless their use is to just check on something glistening up on a ledge... the rest of the party is left behind, so what good did that magic do for everyone?

And Sending and Water Breathing are two abilities that I sincerely doubt any "martial character" are all that mad about that they are not going to do things the non-magic way. "Oh, I don't get to hold my breath for only two minutes and thus cannot help explore that underwater temple? Oh darn!" And "I don't get to ever use this carrier pigeon I've kept in a cage in my backpack this entire campaign just for the chance I can send it out sometime and have it return back to where it came from with a note tied to its leg? What the hell?!?" I do not think there's ever been a Fighter character that has ever thought that.
 


I kind of see the rogue's thing being backstabbing rather than lockpicking, especially since 5e made a background that allows you to be trained in picking locks. If rogues are being shafted, grant them a number of times per day to add 1d6 to a skill they are trained in. Mostly since an argument can be made that a rogue's thing could be stealth, picking pockets, persuasion, etc... and not just picking locks.

Another idea is to change the DC for things. A lock may be DC15 for people trained in the skill, but 20 for everyone else. Not sure if some skills have disadvantage for being untrained, but I can see it here or in tracking and such. Although one can say the roll of the die might take things into consideration.
 

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