D&D General What is the right amount of Classes for Dungeons and Dragons?

[CreamCloud0]

i listed every psionic apropriate spell i could find, i might be err-ing on the side of generous with some of these though, others are more 'they could replicate similar effects with their abilities so this is close enough'

Spoiler: long list

CANTRIPS
blade ward
dancing lights
eldritch blast
encode thoughts
friends
gust
mage hand
message
mind sliver
minor illusion
resistance
shillelagh
thaumaturgy
thunderclap
true strike
vicious mockery
1ST LEVEL
absorb elements
animal friendship
beast bond
catapult
cause fear
charm person
command
compelled duel
detect evil and good
detect magic
disguise self
dissonant whispers
earth tremmor
expeditious retreat
faerie fire
feather fall
find familiar
heroism
id insinuation
jump
longstrider
mage armour
magic missile
magnify gravity
puppet
sense emotion
shield
sleep
thunderwave
2ND LEVEL
alter self
beast sense
calm emotions
crown of madness
detect thoughts
enthrall
gust of wind
hold person
knock
levitate
locate animals or plants
locate object
mental barrier
mind spike
mind thrust
phantasmal force
see invisibility
shatter
suggestion
tasha's mind whip
thought shield
3RD LEVEL
antagonise
catnap
clairvoyance
counterspell
dispel magic
enemies abound
erupting earth
fast friends
fear
feign death
fly
hypnotic pattern
incite greed
intellect fortress
protection from energy
psionic blast
pulse wave
sending
4TH LEVEL
arcane eye
charm monster
compulsion
confusion
dominate beast
ego whip
gravity sinkhole
locate creature
otiluke's resilient sphere
phantasmal killer
raulothim's psychic lance
5TH LEVEL
awaken
bigby's hand
control winds
destructive wave
dominate person
dream
geas
hold monster
modify memory
rary's telepathic bond
scrying
synaptic static
telekinesis
wall of force
6TH LEVEL
contingency
globe of invunerability
gravity fissure
mass suggestion
mental prison
psychic crush
true seeing
7TH LEVEL
forcecage
power word: pain
project image
reverse gravity
whirlwind
8TH LEVEL
antimagic field
antipathy/sympathy
dominate monster
feeblemind
mindblank
power word: stun
telepathy
9TH LEVEL
astral projection
power word: kill
psychic scream
weird

edit: on afterthought i'd add a few lightning damage spells too.
CANTRIP: lightning lure, shocking grasp
1ST LVL: witch bolt
3RD LVL: lightning bolt
6TH LVL: chain lightning

 

[Vaalingrade]

Because it basically dumps another wizard's worth of problems into the game.

Spells are a tiny part of the problem wizards create.

Except being a splatbook it's going to be worse playtested than the PHB spells - and if they are releasing the spells all together there's even less likelihood they've done a decent job of reading, verifying, and playtesting them. The question isn't if they've put the next Silvery Barbs or Healing Spirit into the game but how many times. And that's before we get into combos.

Going this way, we're just not allowed to get anything new because they may not playtest it right.

The problems caused by the wizard are not caused by the base class. They are caused by the wizard's spells. All of them. You aren't asking for just another wizard's worth of problems, you are asking for a poorly playtested wizard knockoff's worth of problems.

To me, the problem with wizards is this thread. The spirit of keeping other people from having something they want because the wizard's big, robed butt is in the way. We can't get a new caster class with a better casting system then neo-Vancian garbage; we just get a subclass that still forces us to use it.

Adding to this, in order to use a character class I need a rough mental map of how the spells work because spells are class features. So it makes the Psion hard to use. And as a DM I need a rough understanding of what the PCs characters will do. You're just trying to brush off a whole lot homework as no big deal.

Okay, so you don't need to use it. that doesn't matter a hill of beans to the people who want psionics and not just more wizard.

 

[Minigiant]

Really it feels like this is a question on subsystems.

Base Game Subsystems

1. Attacks
2. Skills/Tools
3. Spells
4. Feats*

Core Class Subsystems

1. Rage (Barbarian)
2. Bardic Inspiration (Bard)
3. Channel Divinity (Cleric)
4. Wildshape (Druid)
5. Ki/Discipline (Monk)
6. Metamagic (Sorcery)
7. Invocations (Warlock)

Additional Optional Class Subsystems

1. Magic Items
2. Infusions (Artificer)
3. Maneuvers (Battlemaster/Warlord/Warblade)
4. Companion (Beastmaster/Summoner/Beasttamer)
5. Powers (Psion)
6. Totems (Totem Warrior Wildheart)

Niche Popular Optional Class Subsystems

1. Upgraded Wildshape (Moon druid/Shifter)
2. Psi Dice (Psi Warrior/Soul Knife)
3. Runes (Rune Knight/Rune Caster/Rune Priest)
4. Precise Strikes (Duelis
5. Incarnum

The number of classes the person agrees with correlates with how many subsystems they want in the game.

 

[Vaalingrade]

I don't even actually like psionics. I just don't dislike psion players enough to wish ti disenfranchise them.

 

[Neonchameleon]

Spells are a tiny part of the problem wizards create.

Take the spells away and what's left.

Going this way, we're just not allowed to get anything new because they may not playtest it right.

Or we're going to get small bite-sized chunks where the mistakes (like the Twilight Cleric) are easily spotted.

To me, the problem with wizards is this thread. The spirit of keeping other people from having something they want because the wizard's big, robed butt is in the way. We can't get a new caster class with a better casting system then neo-Vancian garbage; we just get a subclass that still forces us to use it.

The Psion has never (outside 4e) been anything other than neo-Vancian garbage, slightly better than the wizard of the time but with its improvements integrated into the game. And every single one of the Psion's improvements other than the reams of custom spells has either been integrated into the base 5e casting system or is part of the Aberrant Mind. All that's left is a neo-Vancian wizard wannabe with spells, many of which were blatant copy/paste jobs of wizard spells.

I've been advocating the Mystic. Because the Psion is just a wizard-wannabe. Until something better than the neo-Vancian subclass is presented then a neo-Vancian subclass that allows multiple takes is vastly better than adding in an entire wizard-wannabe class that dresses like a wizard, uses weapons like a wizard, takes a hit like a wizard, and casts spell point spells like an off-brand wizard.

Okay, so you don't need to use it. that doesn't matter a hill of beans to the people who want psionics and not just more wizard.

I am someone who wants psionics and not just more wizard. The Psion on the other hand is something with a strong historical identity of just more off-brand wizard with a couple of twists on the casting. And we have the Aberrant Mind (covering the Psion), the GOOlock, the Whispers Bard (liminal but definitely playable as psychic), the Soulknife, the Psi Warrior, and even the Astral Soul Monk (again arguable).

Give me something new. Not something that was a couple of good ideas in the middle of a wizard-clone purposely designed to take enough pages to sell a shovelware book. And where most of the good ideas have been taken into core and the rest into an already existing subclass.

I am also someone who would have to rethink my approach to ban lists in 5e if enough spells for a psion to pretend they weren't just another neo-Vancian spellcaster were dumped on the game on one class at once.

 

[Aldarc]

It's funny how all this talk about how the Psion should just be a subclass of the Sorcerer is doing wonders for convincing me that we should get rid of the Sorcerer class entirely.

 

[Neonchameleon]

I don't even actually like psionics. I just don't dislike psion players enough to wish ti disenfranchise them.

Whereas I do like psionics. And replacing 5e's psionic buffet with the piece of neo-Vancian pap that was the psion, or even declaring that that was The True Way To Psionic would disenfranchise me. The psion has very bland mechanics (it's Yet Another Spellcaster with all its good points adopted into the system) and completely misses psionic themes by being a bland antiseptic piece of junk; the Far Realm is better.

 

[Remathilis]

It's funny how all this talk about how the Psion should just be a subclass of the Sorcerer is doing wonders for convincing me that we should get rid of the Sorcerer class entirely.

It's a three step process:

1. Make Psionics a subclass of sorcerer
2. Eliminate sorcerer, fold into wizard.
3. BOOM! Wizard more powerful.

They don't call them Psions of the Coast...

 

[Vaalingrade]

Take the spells away and what's left.

A fan base that keeps taking everyone else's toys and keeping new things from being made?

Or we're going to get small bite-sized chunks where the mistakes (like the Twilight Cleric) are easily spotted.

Small and bite-sized is part of the problem of being starved for desired content. And if the completely not a problem twilight cleric still got made, so bite-sized didn't 'save' us from decent combat healing.

The Psion has never (outside 4e) been anything other than neo-Vancian garbage, slightly better than the wizard of the time but with its improvements integrated into the game. And every single one of the Psion's improvements other than the reams of custom spells has either been integrated into the base 5e casting system or is part of the Aberrant Mind. All that's left is a neo-Vancian wizard wannabe with spells, many of which were blatant copy/paste jobs of wizard spells.

Then use the 4e version. Or make a whole new one. The point is trying something new instead fo the same old spellcaster we've always had because the psion isn't supposed to be a spellcaster.

I've been advocating the Mystic. Because the Psion is just a wizard-wannabe.

Again, the point is that people don't want it to be a wizard.

I am someone who wants psionics and not just more wizard.

And yet you just said you advocated the also-wizard Mystic.

Give me something new.

That's the point! That's why we need a new class! And a list of powers! And basically a whole book of player-facing content and then five more for other concepts that got forced into subclasses where they don't belong!

More classes! More classes for a hundred years!

I am also someone who would have to rethink my approach to ban lists in 5e if enough spells for a psion to pretend they weren't just another neo-Vancian spellcaster were dumped on the game on one class at once.

No ban lists and just adapt?

 

[Neonchameleon]

It's a three step process:

1. Make Psionics a subclass of sorcerer
2. Eliminate sorcerer, fold into wizard.
3. BOOM! Wizard more powerful.

They don't call them Psions of the Coast...

Let's try something better:

1: Make psionics a subclass of sorcerer, warlock, bard, rogue, and fighter rather than having One True Way. (already done)
2: Eliminate wizard and fold into spellbook sorcerer. A core arcane list then the subclasses almost all have list extensions
3: Much more fun and variety