D&D General D&D Assumptions Ain't What They Used To Be

[Chaosmancer]

I don't understand what you're getting at. The books are still the books?

All I'm saying is, IMO bad things like slavery, murder, etc are sad but logical outcomes of societies built by humans and psychologically human-like beings, and would likely exists in such worlds, even if I'm not throwing them in my player's faces in play.

It is interesting how you immediately pulled back from specifics. "bad things like slavery, murder, ect" instead of "this specific bad thing"

Sure, utopia's are impossible. No one is arguing otherwise. But saying "slavery must exist! Because any society created by people will absolutely have slavery! It is just logical!" is... complete garbage reasoning. Will something bad exist? Sure. Does it have to be slavery and racism? No, absolutely not. There is not requirement that those things must exist.

 

[Chaosmancer]

That doesn't necessarily mean that those sacrificed were ok with it.

I never said they were. But "sacrificing a few to protect the many" is a far more morally grey act than "torture because I like hurting people" isn't it?

 

[Chaosmancer]

This is the first time I've seen someone offer a defense for the cultural practice of forcing neighbors to send them human sacrificial victims to be cannibalized. Those poor, misunderstood Aztecs. I look forward to hearing similar defenses for the witch-hunts in early modern Europe. Europeans were simply afraid of the harmful magic from a cadre of devil worshipers bent on destroying Christendom. It was just part of their culture.

Did anyone else have a defense of murderous cannibalism on their bingo card today?

Need to get some facts straight. I never said the Aztecs cannibalized anyone. Many cannibalistic practices were done to honor great warriors by devouring a part of them, so their fighting spirit could reside within the person and empower them to be an even greater warrior. Very very rarely was someone ever killed for the purpose of being eaten.

As for the Witch Trials, you have some misconceptions. The Catholic Church denounced the witch trials continuously as being heretical. Because according to the church, there was no possible way the supernatural could exist. The man who spread the idea of Witches being a threat to good christian men was a priest who was rejected by a woman he was stalking, who then wrote one of the most blatantly misogynistic smear pieces in human history. He was rebuked for his actions, but for some reason a lot of people really liked his ideas of finding people to hunt down, condemn and take wealth and land.. oh I mean, to protect the faith that was definitely under attack.

I'm not saying any of these actions were outright good, but comparing how Catholics ignored catholic doctrine out of fear and hatred to people who earnestly believed they were doing good... doesn't seem like an equal comparison.

 

[Chaosmancer]

What does this have to do with what I posted? I'm not talking about what NPCs do, and I already agreed that the DM can shut such things down.

This whole tangent started when somebody asked what if, in a world where slavery exists, the PCs decide to become slavers? My response was: The same thing that happens if, in a world where slavery doesn't exist, the PCs decide to become slavers. Either the DM and the players choose to go down that road, or they don't. The content of the published setting doesn't dictate their choices either way.

But it clearly isn't the same? A world where slavery exists and is practiced has places where that is acceptable. If you know that the Drow are okay with slavery, then Drow Cities are a place you can openly sell slaves.

In a world where slavery doesn't exist, and is not practiced... well, those PCs either need to actively create propaganda to convince people slavery is good, or they are going to be constantly under threat from all sides because there is no safe harbor for them.

To take a less charged analogy, it is like saying that taking a ship sailing down the coast is the same in a world with a massive shipping industry and port cities all along the coastline... and a world where no one has invented boats. In one of those two worlds, taking a ship from one city to another is far far harder for the PCs to accomplish.

 

[payn]

Yea, I have to agree. Like, I’m not going to add “Child abuser” to a random NPC personality chart. Or even do an encounter predicated on that issue.

But I wouldn’t say “child abuse never happens in this world” without some worldbuilding rationalization. Whether that be a godly edict or simply a strong cultural taboo, but there needs to be something.

Does it though? In 20+ years as a GM I've not included slavery or rape or child abuse as story beats or setting fluff. Happy to report no player yet as asked me where those things happen or if they can invent them. its entirely possible.

 

[MGibster]

As for the Witch Trials, you have some misconceptions. The Catholic Church denounced the witch trials continuously as being heretical. Because according to the church, there was no possible way the supernatural could exist.

I wrote my capstone paper on the historiography of witchcraft. In 900, the Canon Episcopi established belief in witchcraft was delusional but it was delusion based on ideas the devil had planted in someone's head. During the 15th century, as belief in witchcraft became more widespread throughout Europe, the Pope gave the Inquisition permission to prosecute it. Once the witch-hunting craze got into full swing in the 16th century, it's not just the RCC we're talking about it's Protestants as well.

I promise you the craze wasn't caused by one priest who wrote a book. Changing beliefs regarding witchcraft could be seen in the 12th and 13th centuries and eventually the idea of diabolism came into fashion. It took a while to spread though. It didn't get to Scotland until the 16th century when they jumped on it with their own set of trials in 1590-91 and again in 1597.

Need to get some facts straight. I never said the Aztecs cannibalized anyone.

You didn't. You mentioned their sacrifices, but one of the things the Aztecs did was demand their neighbors send some of their people who were then sacrificed and eaten. I imagine this practice was one of the reasons the Spanish had an easy time finding allies. But you're right. Most cultural cannibalism revolves around funerary rites and aren't really all that nefarious. That really wasn't the case for the Aztecs. They were an empire and weren't any nicer than most other empires.

But this is about gaming. There are all sorts of elements you can include in a gaming world. Evil religious orders capturing and cannibalizing prisoners to their dark gods? Yeah, sounds good.

 

[MGibster]

Does it though? In 20+ years as a GM I've not included slavery or rape or child abuse as story beats or setting fluff. Happy to report no player yet as asked me where those things happen or if they can invent them. its entirely possible.

This may be because D&D is a heroic fantasy game which typically doesn't include sexual assault or child abuse. The Drow have existed in D&D for a number of years and that nasty bunch worshipping Lloth are a bunch of no good, low down slavers. Slavery might not be in your game, but it's not unheard of in D&D as a whole.

But it clearly isn't the same? A world where slavery exists and is practiced has places where that is acceptable. If you know that the Drow are okay with slavery, then Drow Cities are a place you can openly sell slaves.

And? I've never had this particular problem in any game I ran. If the PCs ever sold a slave it was under the guise of getting a man on the inside. And if some people do play their game like that, so what?

 

[Micah Sweet]

But it clearly isn't the same? A world where slavery exists and is practiced has places where that is acceptable. If you know that the Drow are okay with slavery, then Drow Cities are a place you can openly sell slaves.

In a world where slavery doesn't exist, and is not practiced... well, those PCs either need to actively create propaganda to convince people slavery is good, or they are going to be constantly under threat from all sides because there is no safe harbor for them.

To take a less charged analogy, it is like saying that taking a ship sailing down the coast is the same in a world with a massive shipping industry and port cities all along the coastline... and a world where no one has invented boats. In one of those two worlds, taking a ship from one city to another is far far harder for the PCs to accomplish.

Look, you can do what you want in your own game, and if you and your players are uncomfortable with slavery and racism of course you can decide those things never existed in your world. But I literally cannot see how such a world squares with anything resembling reality in the sense of how society has worked in many, many cultures throughout history, up to and including today. For example, historically most slaves were captured during war (chattel slavery is a more modern concept). Giving the assumption that war still happens in your world, what happens to the losing side? Are they let go? Killed to a man? How are captives dealt with in general? If you're not going to answer these questions the way many real world cultures did, how are you answering them?

 

[Hussar]

I don't worry about inclusiveness. I'm not the best GM out there, but I'm pretty good. My game is exclusive. If someone doesn't like the way I do things, that's cool. Maybe next time. Or maybe not, I can play with someone else. It's no skin of my back if someone disagrees with me on how to game or what to include or whatever else.

What I don't get is the toxic hall monitor attitude that Karens and busybodies have where they think that everyone who's playing it "wrong" need to be corrected or called out or shamed for their own good, or whatever. Seriously, if it's not your game, it's none of your business, and the real problem is you.

The thing is, no one is really doing that.

What you or I or anyone else does in their home games with a group of consenting ADULTS (let's not forget that there's a significant portion of the hobby that is NOT adults) is fine. Knock yourself out. I've run campaigns with slavery and all sorts of horrible things. That's fine. I'm playing in the privacy of my own home and I'm not bothering anyone other than the people sitting at my table.

What the "hall monitors" as you refer to them are doing, however, is pointing out that including these sorts of things directly into the game is perhaps not the best way to go. It can go so very, very wrong. Just releasing it into the wild and letting things fall where they may is not conducive to a healthy hobby. We had that for years. Where we would get books and settings and whatnot that are of questionable value. "Well just don't play it" is probably the least productive response there is.

 

[Desdichado]

The thing is, no one is really doing that.

Yeah, that happens all the time, actually.