D&D General 5.5 and making the game easier for players and harder for DMs

[Remathilis]

Can you guys ease up on the sarcasm and polarized views? I can't see a thing in here...

Yup, those are definitely your only two choices. It couldn't possibly be anything in between.

The fact you attempt to "both sides" this argument and yet only quote me really lets your bias show.

 

[DarkCrisis]

Added a DM difficulty increase clarification to the first post.

 

[Oofta]

Honestly the thing about weapon masteries is... I'm not sure my players would even use them. My game has an open hand monk who never even uses the unarmed attack riders.

I had a battle master that used their superiority dice a handful of times. In a campaign that went to 20th.

I'm on the fence about weapon masteries, I am a bit concerned about overhead and tracking so we'll just have to see. Fortunately if it's too much of a headache we can just houserule it. I won't know until I see more and experience it in play.

 

[Oofta]

that is not a feeling the 2014 version gave me (past say level 3)

I've had near TPKs with PCs in the upper teens. Difficulty and challenge is up to the DM.

 

[payn]

I think the idea GMs want to kill PCs is a kind of contempt directed at OSR.

It's not contempt, its actual fact. Old school games are designed to be skill play focused survival sims. 5E is not an old school game. Its fine being disappointed in that, however, it doesnt make it a systemic problem that will reach existential level threat if its not addressed. Its just a preference.

The point is not to kill them. The point is being able to challenge them, without running through ever-more hoops to do so.

I'd point out giving the players more options seems like giving the GM more ways to challenge them, but this will ultimately lead to complaints about not being able to kill the PCs. As these discussions often go.

 

[Remathilis]

Edit: clarification on increased DM difficulty. Such as more for the DM to keep track of stuff like more status effects and new one every round Etc. 5.5 seems to increase the DMs load due to an increase in player power(s). Which WotC seems aware of and gleeful about.

This was going to be the net effect of giving martials more to do. Well, to be more specific, giving every class more to do. The fan base decided long ago that "I attack" isn't sufficient round to round action economy fun, so every class has gotten more tactical and thus more complicated. The fighter is going to hit the foe with two weapon mastery properties, the rogue with sneak attack, cunning strike and mastery, the cleric will use his channel divinity and cantrips and the wizard is going to cast a summon spell all while chugging a potion. Yeah, that is a lot going on in a single round of combat, but this was what the community wanted: we rejected the simple "champion" style classes and opted for the tactical options, so we're here now.

Now I'm not going to say it was better when all a fighter, thief and cleric could do was make attacks and the magic user and cleric sometimes cast a spell (but rarely multiple times per fight) but it was sure a lot easier on the DM to track.

 

[HaroldTheHobbit]

While still playing 5e my players knew that the system made their characters practically immortal no matter what I threw at them, unless their chars went full on suicidal death wish while ODing benzo. And that's ok, it's what the system is made for. If they up that in 5.5 it's only a matter of degrees. The risk of character death in the system is a shared imagination between the DM and players to make the game fun, for those who enjoy the 5e play style. The system doesn't demand any kind of good - in the gamist sense - strategic or tactical playing for the characters to survive. And that's also ok, since there are lots of alternatives out there.
If WotC complicate condition tracking etc for DMs it seems stupid from a lack-of-DMs perspective. But I'm confident the WotC marketing folks know what they're doing.

 

[DarkCrisis]

Read as: "Use our electronic tools to keep track of all those status effects:

(

You’re not wrong.

 

[UngeheuerLich]

You’re not wrong.

And at the same time, they nerfed the summon spell specifically to make it easier for the DM.

The whole argument is not very sound.

Having classes with less outliers up and down and monsters that hit their challenge rating better is more than making up for any added status effect.

Especially when the only difference is, that now martials also inflict some of them. But I tell you what. If that makes people play more martial characters, it actually gets easier. Because the satus effects of martials are often inflicted in melee. And most effects mainly only that duel. And be it advantage to next attack, prone, disadvantage against next attack, slow or whatever, your player that inflicted the effect will probably remind you if you forget.

 

[payn]

This was going to be the net effect of giving martials more to do. Well, to be more specific, giving every class more to do. The fan base decided long ago that "I attack" isn't sufficient round to round action economy fun, so every class has gotten more tactical and thus more complicated. The fighter is going to hit the foe with two weapon mastery properties, the rogue with sneak attack, cunning strike and mastery, the cleric will use his channel divinity and cantrips and the wizard is going to cast a summon spell all while chugging a potion. Yeah, that is a lot going on in a single round of combat, but this was what the community wanted: we rejected the simple "champion" style classes and opted for the tactical options, so we're here now.

Now I'm not going to say it was better when all a fighter, thief and cleric could do was make attacks and the magic user and cleric sometimes cast a spell (but rarely multiple times per fight) but it was sure a lot easier on the DM to track.

Also, VTT takes a lot of the load off the GM and players allowing for more of these options to shine. What point is too much and must have a computer is something to think about. However, a difficult question to answer as it seems to vary wildly amongst players.