D&D General 5.5 and making the game easier for players and harder for DMs

[Remathilis]

Sounds like a lot of people playing D&D just don’t like D&D.

I've felt this way about the community for a long while. It's actually disheartening that every discussion on this board ends up with dozens of people trashing the game and the company that makes it relentlessly and without end. Some people make that their whole posting style. Its one thing to dislike things about the game of WotC (nobody is perfect, especially not them) but its every thread, every discussion and relentless drumbeat of people who feel Old D&D/3pp can do no wrong and WotC/New D&D can do no right.

 

[DarkCrisis]

How is a 20th level fighter using Action surge and knocking 8 enemies prone any different from a 17th level paladin casting Destructive Wave and knocking 8 enemies prone? Or a 5th level wizard casting Tidal wave and knocking 8 enemies prone?

A rogue now has a poison ability? How is this different from a rogue getting poison and putting it on their arrows?

Heck, most of the warlock abilities are not even actually new.

Its not new its MORE

 

[James Gasik]

Yeah, honestly, the part of DMing that always slows me down the most and is the most aggravating to deal with... is HP when dealing with a large group of monsters. Remembering which orc is Orc #4 and subtracting the damage is the part I mess up the most and is the hardest. Status effects are usually a bit easier. "Oh, this guy can't do this thing"

Maybe instead of hit points, monsters should have "takes X attacks to kill"....

Oh wait, that's just super minions. Never mind, everyone would hate the idea.

 

[Chaosmancer]

1. "Appropriate-CR" monsters are a pushover for high level characters. The Pit Fiends, generals of hell, have +14 to hit; one character had 35 AC, the other was in the high-20s.

35 AC? Just... how? I'm picturing an Eldritch Knight with +3 plate, +3 shield, the Defensive Fighting style, a Cloak of Protection, and the Defender with all of its bonus devoted to AC and I can still only get to 31, 36 if they use shield I guess?

 

[Remathilis]

Like I said even WotC mentions the increase. Plus as Sly points out a higher level fighter can get 8 attacks around and knocking enemies prone. Add in all the other stuff like new special Rogue abilties and new Warlock abilties etc. It's just MORE.

Something something linear fighter, quadratic wizard something.

 

[Chaltab]

1. "Appropriate-CR" monsters are a pushover for high level characters. The Pit Fiends, generals of hell, have +14 to hit; one character had 35 AC, the other was in the high-20s. Even if they were hit, they had lots of ways to negate or avoid those hits. The two characters, between them, could easily weather and restore themselves from anything the pit fiend or devils could actually do to them. Those two characters probably could've handled an Ancient Blue without any real chance of danger. TWO characters, not even a party of four :')

I mean if your party is optimized to the point one of them has better AC than the literal god of greed... by 10!... then of course a single pit fiend is not a threat. CR 20 is supposed to mean a medium threat to an average party of 4 without magic items.

Part of the problem D&D has by being the biggest game is needing to work for the largest number of people. Been playing for 8 years and I still don't know how you end up with 35 AC in 5e, so I'd wager your problem isnt that common

 

[Chaosmancer]

For a lot of people post-Tasha's 5e was already too bloated and complicated. 5.5 seems to incorporating some of those additions to the base game plus adding new stuff.

So DnD is being made more unfriendly to DMs than ever before... by including rules that have been in DnD for multiple years and adding a single new subsystem?

I mean, sure, in raw aggregate Weapon Mastery is a new thing that didn't exist before. But, if you group ever used any cantrips that had status effects... this isn't a new thing, it is just more characters being capable of the same thing.

Rules adjudication is going to end up in the DM's lap. It will vary by table, but there are a lot of casual tables out there where the players don't fully understand even their own abilities.

So teach them. It isn't exactly hard to explain what Prone is, and if they took the Topple Mastery then they kind of had to know what prone was. Also if your game is so casual that a player picks an ability with absolutely no idea what it does... even then they can still say "oh yeah, remember I did my thing to this guy."

 

[Oofta]

I have character deaths. I have close calls.

I think you overlooked the parts of my comment that I considered necessary to the point, I probably should've bolded them or expanded on them

1. "Appropriate-CR" monsters are a pushover for high level characters. The Pit Fiends, generals of hell, have +14 to hit; one character had 35 AC, the other was in the high-20s. Even if they were hit, they had lots of ways to negate or avoid those hits. The two characters, between them, could easily weather and restore themselves from anything the pit fiend or devils could actually do to them. Those two characters probably could've handled an Ancient Blue without any real chance of danger. TWO characters, not even a party of four :')

I agree that the majority of monsters from the MM are underpowered and need revision. I just don't find it hard to beef them up if I want or simply throw more. That, and any CR system they come up with it will still be a guesstimate when even fundamental things like feats and magic items are optional.

2. that it's difficult to challenge high-level characters without turning your setting on its head. This is setting-dependent I guess, and it really just reinforces the other bits I said: I don't like running high level 5e, because to appropriately challenge a tier 4 party you need to be essentially exhausting your setting of its most powerful beings. In 5e (as compared to other editions I've run), the PC power has gone up, and the monster power has come down. Even through the 5e's lifetime, you can see that monsters have become easier for their CR. Look at the CR 30 Tiamat from Rise of Tiamat, vs the CR30 Aspect of Tiamat from Fizban's. The Aspect is a pushover, but it's still CR30. The "Great Wyrms" from the same book, are likewise pushovers for their CR. It isn't just that book, you can go look at the Vecna adventure to see more examples of "the most deadly foes" that are basically just feel-good beat'em-ups.

But again, if you don't like high level games you don't. You can never please everyone and if you try you often end up pleasing no one. I'll just reiterate that the MM needs to be redone. They plan on doing that and we'll see how it goes. If you want tougher monsters a few minor tweaks usually does the trick and I've used a few 3PP books. I find reskinning monsters also helps, it's not a Balor it's just the latest monster created by Doc McCrazy the mad gnome. Doc McCrazy is, of course, running around in a mech which is just a Warforged Colossus with a few extra tricks up it's sleeve. I also use a slightly different calculator than the one that comes with the DMG, never bother with easy fights and then just adjust between medium and hard/borderline deadly depending on the group.

The CR and difficulties seem to be aimed at a group of 4 non-optimized newbies. Oh, and solos have never worked very well unless you give them significant environmental benefits. My biggest pet peeve is that high CR monsters are always huge and all the high level wizards are copies of each other, all with really stupid spell list. My other pet peeve is that modules have a tendency to throw relatively low level characters into situations that should be reserved for top tier PCs. Facing an aspect of Tiamat at 11th level? Really? Going to the hells at, what, level 3? Where do you go from there?

To do a high level campaign well you really have to know your players and what they're capable of. I find it fun and rewarding but I understand why some people do not.

 

[Chaosmancer]

Its not new its MORE

Okay, so instead of only the wizard being able to slow and knock people prone, now the wizard and the fighter can do it. How is that any different from being in a game with two wizards? What mental load is new to the DM that could never exist in the game before, when all class combinations are possible within a theoretical group?

IF your complaint is "running a game for two fighters is now just as tactically complex as running it for two wizards" I'm not seeing that as a bad thing. And certainly not an effort by the company to make the DMs life harder.

 

[Chaosmancer]

Maybe instead of hit points, monsters should have "takes X attacks to kill"....

Oh wait, that's just super minions. Never mind, everyone would hate the idea.

I've been tempted a few times. Or just rounding everything to the nearest 5 hp.