D&D Historian Benn Riggs On Gary Gygax & Sexism

Status
Not open for further replies.
Screenshot 2024-07-08 at 23.21.58.png


The recent book The Making of Original Dungeons & Dragons 1970-1977 talks about the early years of D&D. In the book, authors Jon Peterson and Jason Tondro talk about the way the game, and its writers, approached certain issues. Not surprisingly, this revelation received aggressive "pushback" on social media because, well, that sort of thing does--in fact, one designer who worked with Gygax at the time labelled it "slanderous".

D&D historian Ben Riggs--author of Slaying the Dragon--delved into the facts. Note that the below was posted on Twitter, in that format, not as an article.

D&D Co-Creator Gary Gygax was Sexist. Talking About it is Key to Preserving his Legacy.

The internet has been rending its clothes and gnashing its teeth over the introduction to an instant classic of TTRPG history, The Making of Original D&D 1970-1977. Published by Wizards of the Coast, it details the earliest days of D&D’s creation using amazing primary source materials.

Why then has the response been outrage from various corners of the internet? Well authors Jon Peterson and Jason Tondro mention that early D&D made light of slavery, disparaged women, and gave Hindu deities hit points. They also repeated Wizard’s disclaimer for legacy content which states:"These depictions were wrong then and are wrong today. This content is presented as it was originally created, because to do otherwise would be the same as claiming these prejudices never existed."

In response to this, an army of grognards swarmed social media to bite their shields and bellow. Early D&D author Rob Kuntz described Peterson and Tondro’s work as “slanderous.” On his Castle Oldskull blog, Kent David Kelly called it “disparagement.” These critics are accusing Peterson and Tondro of dishonesty. Lying, not to put too fine a point on it.So, are they lying? Are they making stuff up about Gary Gygax and early D&D?

Well, let's look at a specific example of what Peterson and Tondro describe as “misogyny “ from 1975's Greyhawk. Greyhawk was the first supplement ever produced for D&D. Written by Gary Gygax and Rob Kuntz, the same Rob Kuntz who claimed slander above, it was a crucial text in the history of the game. For example, it debuted the thief character class. It also gave the game new dragons, among them the King of Lawful Dragons and the Queen of Chaotic Dragons. The male dragon is good, and female dragon is evil. (See Appendix 1 below for more.)

GR9iKUjWsAAete8.jpeg

It is a repetition of the old trope that male power is inherently good, and female power is inherently evil. (Consider the connotations of the words witch and wizard, with witches being evil by definition, for another example.)

Now so-called defenders of Gygax and Kuntz will say that my reading of the above text makes me a fool who wouldn’t know dragon’s breath from a virtue signal. I am ruining D&D with my woke wokeness. Gygax and Kuntz were just building a fun game, and decades later, Peterson and Tondro come along to crap on their work by screeching about misogyny.

(I would also point out that as we are all white men of a certain age talking about misogyny, the worst we can expect is to be flamed online. Women often doing the same thing get rape or death threats.)

Critics of their work would say that Peterson and Tondro are reading politics into D&D. Except that when we return to the Greyhawk text, we see that it was actually Gygax and Kuntz who put “politics” into D&D.

The text itself comments on the fact that the lawful dragon is male, and the chaotic one is female. Gygax and Kuntz wrote: “Women’s lib may make whatever they wish from the foregoing.”


GR9iGsAW0AAmAOw.jpeg

The intent is clear. The female is a realm of chaos and evil, so of course they made their chaotic evil dragon a queen.

Yes, Gygax and Kuntz are making a game, but it is a game whose co-creator explicitly wrote into the rules that feminine power—perhaps even female equality—is by nature evil. There is little room for any other interpretation.

The so-called defenders of Gygax may now say that he was a man of his time, he didn’t know better, or some such. If only someone had told him women were people too in 1975! Well, Gygax was criticized for this fact of D&D at the time. And he left us his response.

Writing in EUROPA, a European fanzine, Gygax said:“I have been accused of being a nasty old sexist-male-Chauvinist-pig, for the wording in D&D isn’t what it should be. There should be more emphasis on the female role, more non-gendered names, and so forth."

GR9iyo3XwAAQCtk.jpeg


"I thought perhaps these folks were right and considered adding women in the ‘Raping and Pillaging[’] section, in the ‘Whores and Tavern Wenches’ chapter, the special magical part dealing with ‘Hags and Crones’...and thought perhaps of adding an appendix on ‘Medieval Harems, Slave Girls, and Going Viking’. Damn right I am sexist. It doesn’t matter to me if women get paid as much as men, get jobs traditionally male, and shower in the men’s locker room."

"They can jolly well stay away from wargaming in droves for all I care. I’ve seen many a good wargame and wargamer spoiled thanks to the fair sex. I’ll detail that if anyone wishes.”


So just to summarize here, Gygax wrote misogyny into the D&D rules. When this was raised with him as an issue at the time, his response was to offer to put rules on rape and sex slavery into D&D.

The outrage online directed at Peterson and Tondro is not only entirely misplaced and disproportional, and perhaps even dishonest in certain cases...

Part 2: D&D Co-Creator Gary Gygax was Sexist. Talking About it is Key to Preserving his Legacy....it is also directly harming the legacies of Gygax, Arneson, Kuntz and the entire first generation of genius game designers our online army of outraged grognards purport to defend.

How? Let me show you.The D&D player base is getting more diverse in every measurable way, including age, gender, sexual orientation, and race. To cite a few statistics, 81% of D&D players are Millenials or Gen Z, and 39% are women. This diversity is incredible, and not because the diversity is some blessed goal unto itself. Rather, the increasing diversity of D&D proves the vigor of the TTRPG medium. Like Japanese rap music or Soviet science fiction, the transportation of a medium across cultures, nations, and genders proves that it is an important method for exploring the human condition. And while TTRPGs are a game, they are also clearly an important method for exploring the human condition. The fact the TTRPG fanbase is no longer solely middle-aged Midwestern cis men of middle European descent...

...the fact that non-binary blerds and Indigenous trans women and fat Polish-American geeks like me and people from every bed of the human vegetable garden ...

find meaning in a game created by two white guys from the Midwest is proof that Gygax and Arneson were geniuses who heaved human civilization forward, even if only by a few feet.

So, as a community, how do we deal with the ugly prejudices of our hobby’s co-creator who also baked them into the game we love? We could pretend there is no problem at all, and say that anyone who mentions the problem is a liar. There is no misogyny to see. There is no **** and there is no stink, and anyone who says there is naughty word on your sneakers is lying and is just trying to embarrass you.

I wonder how that will go? Will all these new D&D fans decide that maybe D&D isn’t for them? They know the stink of misogyny, just like they know **** when they smell it. To say it isn’t there is an insult to their intelligence. If they left the hobby over this, it would leave our community smaller, poorer, and suggest that the great work of Gygax, Arneson, Kuntz, and the other early luminaries on D&D was perhaps not so great after all…

We could take the route of Disney and Song of the South. Wizards could remove all the PDFs of early D&D from DriveThruRPG. They could refuse to ever reprint this material again. Hide it. Bury it. Erase it all with copyright law and lawyers. Yet no matter how deeply you bury the past, it always tends to come back up to the surface again. Heck, there are whole podcast series about that. And what will all these new D&D fans think when they realize that a corporation tried to hide its own mistakes from them?

Again, maybe they decide D&D isn’t the game for them. Or maybe when someone tells you there is **** on your shoe, you say thanks, clean it off, and move on.

We honor the old books, but when they tell a reader they are a lesser human being, we should acknowledge that is not the D&D of 2024. Something like...

“Hey reader, we see you in all your wondrous multiplicity of possibility, and if we were publishing this today, it wouldn’t contain messages and themes telling some of you that you are less than others. So we just want to warn you. That stuff’s in there.”

Y’know, something like that legacy content warning they put on all those old PDFs on DriveThruRPG. And when we see something bigoted in old D&D, we talk about it. It lets the new, broad, and deep tribe of D&D know that we do not want bigotry in D&D today. Talking about it welcomes the entire human family into the hobby.To do anything less is to damn D&D to darkness. It hobbles its growth, gates its community, denies the world the joy of the game, and denies its creators their due. D&D’s creators were visionary game designers. They were also people, and people are kinda ****** up. So a necessary step in making D&D the sort of cultural pillar that it deserves to be is to name its bigotries and prejudices when you see them. Failure to do so hurts the game by shrinking our community and therefore shrinking the legacy of its creators.

Appendix 1: Yeah, I know Chaos isn’t the same as Evil in OD&D.

But I would also point out as nerdily as possible that on pg. 9 of Book 1 of OD&D, under “Character Alignment, Including Various Monsters and Creatures,” Evil High Priests are included under the “Chaos” heading, along with the undead. So I would put to you that Gygax did see a relationship between Evil and Chaos at the time.

GR9lAHtaQAANLyb.jpeg




Look, folks, we know how a conversation like this goes on the internet. Because, internet. Read the rules you agreed to before replying. The banhammer will be used on those who don't do what they agreed to.
 

log in or register to remove this ad

What good does it do to keep dragging this up?
what good does sweeping it under the rug do?

Who does it help?
it raises awareness

Whatever, as with Riggs posts, it will ultimately change nothing besides cause a day or 2 of discourse and ever widening a gap that didn't need to be there in the first place.
yes, that gap needs to be there. If you are a racist or misogynist I very much want a gap there
 

log in or register to remove this ad

DarkCrisis, I'm very confused. You yourself seemed up in arms and very engaged in saying Riggs and others shouldn't be posting about Gygax's sexism. But when I get engaged in the conversation, suddenly you're telling me it's just a game. If this is a topic you don't want to discuss, that's fine, but I'd prefer for you to not tell me whether I should or should not care about this.

Is D&D not just a game?

What I find issue with is causing more discourse in the fandom. What good does it do the fans and D&D to cause yet more discourse? Some people are now aware Gary was sexist and parts of AD&D was sexist. Great. What's the net positive? More awareness of a dead mans flaws? People hating him and his old version of the game they never have or have to touch or read? Angered the old grognards? Good job at pointing out their flaws again? Made them angry. Bravo. Proved your point the old ways blow?

Seriously what's the net positive in this whole thing? "More people aware of sexism > Tons more discourse in the fandom."

I just don't see how digging all this up again and causing more bad feelings again is equal to or worth more to learn that Gary had bad opinions and put some of that into his work. It's 50 year old books and a dead man. Yet we are 26 pages in on discourse here at this form and Im sure there is a ton more on Twitter and Reddit.

I really just do not see the point. It's not worth it. Especially when hyperbole gets brought into it. "History repeats itself." This isn't world nation history. It's a game book that a handful of fans (comparatively) still play today.
 

All Im saying is, how many times do the fans need to drag him through the mud? Or according to the 50th Anniversary book, all of them. Arneson etc.
One more time than the outright liars try raising him on high and to scream that he wasn't and make fact free complaints or throw mud at those pointing out true things.

Ideally the response to the statement "Gygax was sexist" would be "you only just noticed?" But it wasn't.
This topic isn't new. It's brought up here all the time in some form. You have new D&D fans only exposure to the man as "super sexist and racist". Which makes them fear and hate older players (and to be fair some of those older player are trash).

What good does it do to keep dragging this up?
It was "dragged up" for the 50th anniversary. A special occasion which had associated historical books.

Then some toxic chuds chose to attack the historians. Who did that help? Other than by doing a far far better job of creating the impression that grognards in the 21st Century are trash.

But you are confusing me. Benn Riggs didn't start the conversation. He is also, so far as I am aware, being completely fair.

Yet this is what offends you? This rather than the people dragging old school gamers through the mud by demonstrating that many at best excuse and frequently condone blatant sexism with attacks on historians.
Who does it help?
Honestly? Ben Riggs profile. You're literally posting about an author having a hot take.
It would seem it causes more net bad than good.
How? How does pointing out that not all the D&D community that likes older games and are willing to speak up either excuse or condone blatant sexism harm the community?
Gary and the old crew are bad. AD&D and bad. And anyone who played is probably also bad. In turn a lot of those grognards just think new fans are just self-righteous haters.
Who does divisive rhetoric like this help, caricaturing the one side? It's far more extreme than any of Riggs.
But eh, I've always been a "whatever" kind of person. Just seems weird to me people are up in arms over what Gygax said or did and choose to use it to define and/or attack other people.
A "whatever" kind of person is not someone I would expect to have made multiple multi-paragraph posts on the subject. Xitter is always up in arms about something. It's why I don't go there much.
Whatever, as with Riggs posts, it will ultimately change nothing besides cause a day or 2 of discourse and ever widening a gap that didn't need to be there in the first place.
And you yourself, so far as I can tell, are also widening that gap by spending so much time criticising Riggs and saying very little about the endemic sexism. You're an old school fan who appears to be closing ranks with toxic old school fans and implying facts should be off limits, this hardening the divide.
 

Is D&D not just a game?

What I find issue with is causing more discourse in the fandom. What good does it do the fans and D&D to cause yet more discourse? Some people are now aware Gary was sexist and parts of AD&D was sexist. Great. What's the net positive? More awareness of a dead mans flaws? People hating him and his old version of the game they never have or have to touch or read? Angered the old grognards? Good job at pointing out their flaws again? Made them angry. Bravo. Proved your point the old ways blow?

Seriously what's the net positive in this whole thing? "More people aware of sexism > Tons more discourse in the fandom."

I just don't see how digging all this up again and causing more bad feelings again is equal to or worth more to learn that Gary had bad opinions and put some of that into his work. It's 50 year old books and a dead man. Yet we are 26 pages in on discourse here at this form and Im sure there is a ton more on Twitter and Reddit.

I really just do not see the point. It's not worth it. Especially when hyperbole gets brought into it. "History repeats itself." This isn't world nation history. It's a game book that a handful of fans (comparatively) still play today.
The reason I brought up a quote about history is because this discussion is about a history book and some response to it. The sexism written into D&D is important to TTRPGs because that's a kind of foundational text a lot of modern RPGs are based on. By examining what was awesome about these first TTRPGs, what was innovative, and also what was sexist or racist or not fun is an important conversation for those who are interested in the hobby.

There are people out there who find it really important to be inclusive and conscientious in designing TTRPGs. Examining the past of the hobby is important to them, and to me.
 

This kind of makes me wonder if there are any approachable books out there discussing the process by which a long discriminated against group starts moving against it. Is their something like the Stockholm syndrome where discriminated against humans adjust themselves to accepting their life is supposed to suck?
Stockholm Syndrom isn't really a thing, but yeah, there's something like that. Perhaps a good example of this is the new version of The Stepford Wives starring Nicole Kidman and Matthew Broderick in 2004. The original book is more than 50 years old, the original movie is nearly 50 years old, and the recent movie is 20 years old. I'm going to spoil them, so don't read if that bothers you.

In the original Stepford Wives, both book and movie, in response to wives who wanted to have their own careers and lives outside their husbands/families, the husbands conspired to replace those wives with robots who wouldn't have silly thoughts about independence and focus entirely on the needs of their husbands and domestic life. The 2004 remake flipped that on its head. It wasn't the men who were replacing the wives with robots, it was a woman. And she was doing it because she believed women would be happier in more "traditional" roles. I keep thinking I heard this referred to as internal colonization, but when I look up that phrase I get a definition that's completely different from what I'm looking for.

I do think a lot of people who are oppressed get to a point where they do accept that this is the way things are. They might not agree with it or like it, but that's just life and there's nothing they can really do about it. A lot of Octavia Butler's work revolves around this concept. In a lot of her stories, her protagonist aren't able to fix the problem but instead have to find some way to live with it and cope the best they can.
 

Is D&D not just a game?

What I find issue with is causing more discourse in the fandom. What good does it do the fans and D&D to cause yet more discourse? Some people are now aware Gary was sexist and parts of AD&D was sexist. Great. What's the net positive? More awareness of a dead mans flaws? People hating him and his old version of the game they never have or have to touch or read? Angered the old grognards? Good job at pointing out their flaws again? Made them angry. Bravo. Proved your point the old ways blow?

Seriously what's the net positive in this whole thing? "More people aware of sexism > Tons more discourse in the fandom."

I just don't see how digging all this up again and causing more bad feelings again is equal to or worth more to learn that Gary had bad opinions and put some of that into his work. It's 50 year old books and a dead man. Yet we are 26 pages in on discourse here at this form and Im sure there is a ton more on Twitter and Reddit.

I really just do not see the point. It's not worth it. Especially when hyperbole gets brought into it. "History repeats itself." This isn't world nation history. It's a game book that a handful of fans (comparatively) still play today.
Then why let yourself get in an uproar about any of this? What do you gain from calling this into question?
 

Ok. I say so. I assumed that was obvious and a point most (it’s the internet, no never all) would implicitly agree with. Not really sure why you are taking me to task here?

Do you have me confused with someone else?

Sorry. but commenting on those topics is not something I can do on this forum.
I was initially replying to a different poster who seemed to be suggesting that Riggs had crossed some sort of line between "historical" works and "political" works. I made the claim that this line does not exist and that the work of historians is intrinsically political. Then you came in replied, saying there is a difference between fair/unbiased history and unfair/biased history. By introducing the topics of fairness and bias here, I assumed that you were saying that so-called "political" works are unfair and biased ones.

Now as it happens, I would prefer to talk about fairness and bias. I think that labeling something as "political" is often a pretext for dismissing it out-of-hand for various epistemically vicious reasons (and I use "vicious" here in the sense of "the opposite of virtuous"). That is to say, labeling something "political" is often a way to set aside something without actually engaging with it. On the other hand, criticizing a work for bias or lack of fairness can involve engaging with it. So when you introduced the topic, I naturally assumed that you thought that Riggs (and perhaps Peterson and Tondro) were being unfair or biased. Perhaps this was unwarranted; I did not mean to impute to you views you do not hold. So my question is: do you think that Riggs et al were being unfair/biased to Gygax? I do not.
The question to me is more about what changes with Gary really being a sexist? I don’t really see any change or action to be taken here.

At best it’s an academic point, at worst it’s important to some due to reinforcing or overturning their worldview.
Speaking for myself, while I knew that Gygax held some odious views (cf. highlighting John Chivington as an exemplar of lawful good behavior), I was unaware of how horrid he was on the subject of sex. So bringing this topic up serves to educate, first and foremost—and it shows how and why early RPG communities and spaces might have been unwelcoming for women. Knowing how bad Gygax was provides a sort of yardstick by which we might measure progress, as well, and helps us chart a course for how we might continue to improve.
 

This. Everyone ready to define him by a flaw. Which I'm sure everyone here is pristine and flawless.

No one is attempting to to do that.

The original historians who originally caused the controversy weren't trying to define Gygax by his sexism, they just accurately pointed out he was sexist, and people lost their minds about it.

Riggs isn't trying to define him by his sexism, he is just pointing out that he was.

And in fact, Riggs goes a step further, and says that because Gygax was such a phenomenally important figure who did such amazing things for out culture and reshaped multiple industries... then it is important to recognize the truth about him, which includes the fact that he was sexist.

Does it define him? No. Can we only criticize important historical figures if we ourselves are pristine and without flaw... also no, that's dumb and only leads to us criticizing no one at any point for any action. Same with "but it was the times", yeah, sure it was the times. Those times sucked, and it shouldn't be a problem to point out that those times sucked and we shouldn't be happy that those times sucked.
 

Tangent...

This kind of makes me wonder if there are any approachable books out there discussing the process by which a long discriminated against group starts moving against it. Is their something like the Stockholm syndrome where discriminated against humans adjust themselves to accepting their life is supposed to suck and they wouldn't particularly say things were bad? What does it take for momentum to build up where a sizeable portion attempt to talk about it publicly? When is it due to a few key individuals vs. a more movement as a whole? How much does relative power between the groups play in, etc... ? (Recently watched "The Abominable Bride" episode of Sherlock that has the women's suffrage movement, for example.)
I do not know of any books on the topic but from my own reading of history it has to get out there that change is possible. Also, economic and political dislocations can be a big driver of these kinds of changes as it stirs the pot and weakens the existing establishment and their control mechanisms.
For instance, the connections from the French Revolution to the subsequent revolutionary movement in Europe in 1848 and later.
The connection between the Industrial Revolution and its economic and social disruption of the existing order and the rise of whole raft of modern trends: like trade unionism, universal suffrage and the changing role of women in society,
 

Is D&D not just a game?
Yes.
What I find issue with is causing more discourse in the fandom. What good does it do the fans and D&D to cause yet more discourse? Some people are now aware Gary was sexist and parts of AD&D was sexist. Great. What's the net positive? More awareness of a dead mans flaws? People hating him and his old version of the game they never have or have to touch or read? Angered the old grognards? Good job at pointing out their flaws again? Made them angry. Bravo. Proved your point the old ways blow?
Noticing that some things are not "up to date" anymore is not making people hate him. Most people are not judging others that way.
Seriously what's the net positive in this whole thing? "More people aware of sexism > Tons more discourse in the fandom."
People attacked the authors. What was their intention?
I just don't see how digging all this up again and causing more bad feelings again is equal to or worth more to learn that Gary had bad opinions and put some of that into his work. It's 50 year old books and a dead man. Yet we are 26 pages in on discourse here at this form and Im sure there is a ton more on Twitter and Reddit.
Again. People seem to feel attacked by the authors pointing out what was not up to date (which is needed if you reprint that).
I really just do not see the point. It's not worth it. Especially when hyperbole gets brought into it. "History repeats itself." This isn't world nation history. It's a game book that a handful of fans (comparatively) still play today.
 

Status
Not open for further replies.
Remove ads

Remove ads

Top