D&D Historian Benn Riggs On Gary Gygax & Sexism

Status
Not open for further replies.
Screenshot 2024-07-08 at 23.21.58.png


The recent book The Making of Original Dungeons & Dragons 1970-1977 talks about the early years of D&D. In the book, authors Jon Peterson and Jason Tondro talk about the way the game, and its writers, approached certain issues. Not surprisingly, this revelation received aggressive "pushback" on social media because, well, that sort of thing does--in fact, one designer who worked with Gygax at the time labelled it "slanderous".

D&D historian Ben Riggs--author of Slaying the Dragon--delved into the facts. Note that the below was posted on Twitter, in that format, not as an article.

D&D Co-Creator Gary Gygax was Sexist. Talking About it is Key to Preserving his Legacy.

The internet has been rending its clothes and gnashing its teeth over the introduction to an instant classic of TTRPG history, The Making of Original D&D 1970-1977. Published by Wizards of the Coast, it details the earliest days of D&D’s creation using amazing primary source materials.

Why then has the response been outrage from various corners of the internet? Well authors Jon Peterson and Jason Tondro mention that early D&D made light of slavery, disparaged women, and gave Hindu deities hit points. They also repeated Wizard’s disclaimer for legacy content which states:"These depictions were wrong then and are wrong today. This content is presented as it was originally created, because to do otherwise would be the same as claiming these prejudices never existed."

In response to this, an army of grognards swarmed social media to bite their shields and bellow. Early D&D author Rob Kuntz described Peterson and Tondro’s work as “slanderous.” On his Castle Oldskull blog, Kent David Kelly called it “disparagement.” These critics are accusing Peterson and Tondro of dishonesty. Lying, not to put too fine a point on it.So, are they lying? Are they making stuff up about Gary Gygax and early D&D?

Well, let's look at a specific example of what Peterson and Tondro describe as “misogyny “ from 1975's Greyhawk. Greyhawk was the first supplement ever produced for D&D. Written by Gary Gygax and Rob Kuntz, the same Rob Kuntz who claimed slander above, it was a crucial text in the history of the game. For example, it debuted the thief character class. It also gave the game new dragons, among them the King of Lawful Dragons and the Queen of Chaotic Dragons. The male dragon is good, and female dragon is evil. (See Appendix 1 below for more.)

GR9iKUjWsAAete8.jpeg

It is a repetition of the old trope that male power is inherently good, and female power is inherently evil. (Consider the connotations of the words witch and wizard, with witches being evil by definition, for another example.)

Now so-called defenders of Gygax and Kuntz will say that my reading of the above text makes me a fool who wouldn’t know dragon’s breath from a virtue signal. I am ruining D&D with my woke wokeness. Gygax and Kuntz were just building a fun game, and decades later, Peterson and Tondro come along to crap on their work by screeching about misogyny.

(I would also point out that as we are all white men of a certain age talking about misogyny, the worst we can expect is to be flamed online. Women often doing the same thing get rape or death threats.)

Critics of their work would say that Peterson and Tondro are reading politics into D&D. Except that when we return to the Greyhawk text, we see that it was actually Gygax and Kuntz who put “politics” into D&D.

The text itself comments on the fact that the lawful dragon is male, and the chaotic one is female. Gygax and Kuntz wrote: “Women’s lib may make whatever they wish from the foregoing.”


GR9iGsAW0AAmAOw.jpeg

The intent is clear. The female is a realm of chaos and evil, so of course they made their chaotic evil dragon a queen.

Yes, Gygax and Kuntz are making a game, but it is a game whose co-creator explicitly wrote into the rules that feminine power—perhaps even female equality—is by nature evil. There is little room for any other interpretation.

The so-called defenders of Gygax may now say that he was a man of his time, he didn’t know better, or some such. If only someone had told him women were people too in 1975! Well, Gygax was criticized for this fact of D&D at the time. And he left us his response.

Writing in EUROPA, a European fanzine, Gygax said:“I have been accused of being a nasty old sexist-male-Chauvinist-pig, for the wording in D&D isn’t what it should be. There should be more emphasis on the female role, more non-gendered names, and so forth."

GR9iyo3XwAAQCtk.jpeg


"I thought perhaps these folks were right and considered adding women in the ‘Raping and Pillaging[’] section, in the ‘Whores and Tavern Wenches’ chapter, the special magical part dealing with ‘Hags and Crones’...and thought perhaps of adding an appendix on ‘Medieval Harems, Slave Girls, and Going Viking’. Damn right I am sexist. It doesn’t matter to me if women get paid as much as men, get jobs traditionally male, and shower in the men’s locker room."

"They can jolly well stay away from wargaming in droves for all I care. I’ve seen many a good wargame and wargamer spoiled thanks to the fair sex. I’ll detail that if anyone wishes.”


So just to summarize here, Gygax wrote misogyny into the D&D rules. When this was raised with him as an issue at the time, his response was to offer to put rules on rape and sex slavery into D&D.

The outrage online directed at Peterson and Tondro is not only entirely misplaced and disproportional, and perhaps even dishonest in certain cases...

Part 2: D&D Co-Creator Gary Gygax was Sexist. Talking About it is Key to Preserving his Legacy....it is also directly harming the legacies of Gygax, Arneson, Kuntz and the entire first generation of genius game designers our online army of outraged grognards purport to defend.

How? Let me show you.The D&D player base is getting more diverse in every measurable way, including age, gender, sexual orientation, and race. To cite a few statistics, 81% of D&D players are Millenials or Gen Z, and 39% are women. This diversity is incredible, and not because the diversity is some blessed goal unto itself. Rather, the increasing diversity of D&D proves the vigor of the TTRPG medium. Like Japanese rap music or Soviet science fiction, the transportation of a medium across cultures, nations, and genders proves that it is an important method for exploring the human condition. And while TTRPGs are a game, they are also clearly an important method for exploring the human condition. The fact the TTRPG fanbase is no longer solely middle-aged Midwestern cis men of middle European descent...

...the fact that non-binary blerds and Indigenous trans women and fat Polish-American geeks like me and people from every bed of the human vegetable garden ...

find meaning in a game created by two white guys from the Midwest is proof that Gygax and Arneson were geniuses who heaved human civilization forward, even if only by a few feet.

So, as a community, how do we deal with the ugly prejudices of our hobby’s co-creator who also baked them into the game we love? We could pretend there is no problem at all, and say that anyone who mentions the problem is a liar. There is no misogyny to see. There is no **** and there is no stink, and anyone who says there is naughty word on your sneakers is lying and is just trying to embarrass you.

I wonder how that will go? Will all these new D&D fans decide that maybe D&D isn’t for them? They know the stink of misogyny, just like they know **** when they smell it. To say it isn’t there is an insult to their intelligence. If they left the hobby over this, it would leave our community smaller, poorer, and suggest that the great work of Gygax, Arneson, Kuntz, and the other early luminaries on D&D was perhaps not so great after all…

We could take the route of Disney and Song of the South. Wizards could remove all the PDFs of early D&D from DriveThruRPG. They could refuse to ever reprint this material again. Hide it. Bury it. Erase it all with copyright law and lawyers. Yet no matter how deeply you bury the past, it always tends to come back up to the surface again. Heck, there are whole podcast series about that. And what will all these new D&D fans think when they realize that a corporation tried to hide its own mistakes from them?

Again, maybe they decide D&D isn’t the game for them. Or maybe when someone tells you there is **** on your shoe, you say thanks, clean it off, and move on.

We honor the old books, but when they tell a reader they are a lesser human being, we should acknowledge that is not the D&D of 2024. Something like...

“Hey reader, we see you in all your wondrous multiplicity of possibility, and if we were publishing this today, it wouldn’t contain messages and themes telling some of you that you are less than others. So we just want to warn you. That stuff’s in there.”

Y’know, something like that legacy content warning they put on all those old PDFs on DriveThruRPG. And when we see something bigoted in old D&D, we talk about it. It lets the new, broad, and deep tribe of D&D know that we do not want bigotry in D&D today. Talking about it welcomes the entire human family into the hobby.To do anything less is to damn D&D to darkness. It hobbles its growth, gates its community, denies the world the joy of the game, and denies its creators their due. D&D’s creators were visionary game designers. They were also people, and people are kinda ****** up. So a necessary step in making D&D the sort of cultural pillar that it deserves to be is to name its bigotries and prejudices when you see them. Failure to do so hurts the game by shrinking our community and therefore shrinking the legacy of its creators.

Appendix 1: Yeah, I know Chaos isn’t the same as Evil in OD&D.

But I would also point out as nerdily as possible that on pg. 9 of Book 1 of OD&D, under “Character Alignment, Including Various Monsters and Creatures,” Evil High Priests are included under the “Chaos” heading, along with the undead. So I would put to you that Gygax did see a relationship between Evil and Chaos at the time.

GR9lAHtaQAANLyb.jpeg




Look, folks, we know how a conversation like this goes on the internet. Because, internet. Read the rules you agreed to before replying. The banhammer will be used on those who don't do what they agreed to.
 

log in or register to remove this ad

More an example if how things have changed. What you coukd get away with 30 years ago can get you thrown in jail.
No.

Absolutely not.

The Scientologists spent 20 years suing, threatening, stalking and bullying people to keep Masterson's crimes from coming to light.

Why did they do that if it was acceptable to be a serial rapist at the time?

I'll tell you why - because it wasn't, and Masterson, then seen as a rising light of Scientology, would have gone to jail. Your argument is from pure ignorance of the case. Sorry. The facts completely undermine that. Just look it up, here, I'll google it for you because it's easy:


The same is true for most of the people you use as examples - Weinstein was dedicated to covering up his crimes and blackmailing and worse blackballing from the industry anyone who didn't go along with him. Epstein was literally given a completely corrupt non-prosecution agreement, over the loud and angry howls of the FBI who'd spent years making a case against him. In 2006. Why? Because he was rich and connected to the right people. That still largely works today. The only real changes are:

A) Fewer people instantly disbelieve or dismiss women and children when they say they were attacked anymore because they've seen it turn out to be true so many times. Still some do, but it's a lot less (used to be like, 60% who either dismissed it or blamed the victim, now it's more like 30%).

B) It's much, much harder to cover up stuff you've done, because of cellphones and social media. It's also much easier to record yourself doing a crime, or record and broadcast yourself saying something completely vile, which would absolutely have crashed your career in 1993 or whenever, but in 1993, you said in at a table in a bar, or at home with friendly people, who then went "Shhh don't say that haha!" and at worst, it became an unprovable anecdote about you, whereas in 2024, you probably said it into your phone, uploaded to Instagram or typed it into Twitter on purpose because you thought "I AM VERY SMART" and then were extremely surprised when people didn't agree that was a cool thing to believe.
 
Last edited:

log in or register to remove this ad

Box office.

And I'm not shifting the goal post. My arguement has always been about the scale of things not if it's right or wrong. I specifically said it's not about morality.

There's a market for it but it's not mainstream. Outside of America I think Sound of Freedom iirc made peanuts. Unlike say 80s movies.
80s movies have big money from overseas because they've been played overseas for 40 years.

And yes. It's a shifting of goal posts. To go from "Ruined Career" to "Smaller Budget Movies" is a major goal post shift. One of the most profitable movies, ever, had one of the smallest budgets ever.

The Blair Witch Project.
More an example if how things have changed. What you coukd get away with 30 years ago can get you thrown in jail.

I was looking at it from a career ruined PoV and jail can do that.

I do remember allegations from the 90s where people essentially got away with it. Still happens of course but it's harder and everyone has recording devices in their pockets.
Jesus Tapdancing Christ.
 


That's not what I see going on in this thread.

I don't think people are disputing the actual items Gary said, I see people disagreeing over how impactful this is on Gary's legacy and whether or not his attitudes are part of the past culture or not.

  • Some people feel it's a huge deal, and some have made the case that it resulted in a flawed D&D that was less inclusive, etc. Some have called it an "important topic"
Is there any question that it resulted in a flawed D&D that was less inclusive, etc.? And that this made it an important topic? Who are these "some people"?

I think, for example, that taking shots at "women's lib," or capping certain ability scores for female characters, for example, pretty inarguably make the game less inclusive. And I think these are self-evidently important topics.

If the counterargument is "what's the big deal, anyway?" then I think that speaks for itself. And yes, I think most of the folks who are upset at the sexism (not to mention homophobia and racism) in the book being called out are upset because they don't see these things as a big deal. Certainly not worth tarnishing St. Gary with so much as an oblique reference in a 537 page book that is otherwise dedicated to celebrating his achievement.

But they are a big deal. They did negatively impact the game and many people. Acknowledging problems allows us to work on fixing them.
 
Last edited:

80s movies have big money from overseas because they've been played overseas for 40 years.

And yes. It's a shifting of goal posts. To go from "Ruined Career" to "Smaller Budget Movies" is a major goal post shift. One of the most profitable movies, ever, had one of the smallest budgets ever.

The Blair Witch Project.

Jesus Tapdancing Christ.

I'm not denying there's a market for chud content but once again the difference is scale.

Johnny Depps gone from one of the hoggest stars to doing movies I've never heard of.

And yes a lot of thatstuff is coming to light now because it was easier to bury back then vs now.
 

I know you weren’t. You very clearly said you don’t want to say whether it’s right or wrong. I totally understand where you’re coming from.

Already said it's wrong dig deeper.
I'm not disagreeing with the message. I'm disagreeing with the messaging. There's a difference.

Bit more context I'm not American. I'm sitting on the sidelines observing. Downside is due to social media it bleeds over here as well. If America turns to complete crud I expect we will fllow to see extent. Follow the money.
 


Johnny Depps gone from one of the hoggest stars to doing movies I've never heard of.
Plenty of stars have downturns in their career. I don't think Depp is really eating it because he's been cancelled, because he has huge numbers of psycho fans who think Amber Heard is an evil witch and Depp an innocent, if drunken, victim.

He's eating it because he gave up on actually acting in his movies like, 10+ years ago (c.f. the last three Pirates sequels etc.), and he doesn't look like Johnny Depp anymore. Some male stars are feeling the bite of age in the way only female stars used to.

Mel Gibson.
Still doing exactly the kinds of movies you'd expect from a guy who was never a good actor, and is now looking kind of rough and in his late 60s.

If he's "cancelled", then Sylvester Stallone, Arnie, and a bunch of other aging, kind of rough-looking male 80s/90s action stars are all "cancelled".

He just directed a mid-budget movie, btw - Flight Risk, which is expected to do pretty decently, and is directing Passion of the Christ 2, which is likewise expected to make a fair bit of money. Seems like a lot of people paying him to make movies for a cancelled guy.
 

Already said it's wrong dig deeper.
I'm not disagreeing with the message. I'm disagreeing with the messaging. There's a difference.

Bit more context I'm not American. I'm sitting on the sidelines observing. Downside is due to social media it bleeds over here as well. If America turns to complete crud I expect we will fllow to see extent.
You’ve also already said you don’t want to say whether it’s right or wrong. Perhaps you want to be clearer. You say you disagree with the messaging versus the message. I don’t know how you can expect someone to parse that statement and come away thinking that you aren’t equivocating.

Follow the money.

Um. What?
 

That's not what I see going on in this thread.

I don't think people are disputing the actual items Gary said, I see people disagreeing over how impactful this is on Gary's legacy and whether or not his attitudes are part of the past culture or not.

  • Some people feel it's a huge deal, and some have made the case that it resulted in a flawed D&D that was less inclusive, etc. Some have called it an "important topic"
  • Some feel it was part of a flawed past culture, or that others are making a bigger deal of the issues, or pushing back on the people seeing this as a deeper systemic problem, etc.
The fact that you are framing it as "illogical" and statements that "knickers aren't twisted", seems to imply that the other side is wrong for having their opinion. I see more people upset on the first bullet point, the ones who want to be critical of Gygax in this thread, or critical of anybody who even presents the least bit of criticism the the other way. I see a few of the arguments from the second bullet point being calm and reasonable, with those with the first viewpoint getting mad that people even have those opinions. Or asking for sidebar discussions to stop because it's distracting from the subject of the thread.

It takes two sides to argue, somebody has to have the last word before the thread dies. Do you want the thread to stop? Or do you just want to shut down any posts that disagree with your viewpoint? If its the former, then why do you care if the other side has the last word.

The key thing is opinions on Gary Gygax will remain that. Opinions. You can personally pass judgement, but you can't affect what other people think. And if you get angry or upset that people in a debate thread don't agree with you, that's really your problem.

I don't think it matters how Gary's sexism "impacts his legacy" because his legacy is still Dungeons and Dragons either way. He is the co-author of D&D, regardless of his sexism. But he was also a proud sexist.

Did his sexism result in Early D&D being more sexist than it would have been if he wasn't a sexist... yes. Undeniably. There are examples everywhere. Is a more sexist game less inclusive? Yes, obviously. These two things are just factually true. D&D is still D&D whether or not you acknowledge those things are true.

Was Gary's Sexism a result of his upbringing? Well, can't say that I'm an expert psychologist who can precisely dissect a person's innate personality from their upbringing or even if that is a thing that is possible to do. It also, purely, does not matter. Because if it does matter, if Gygax is less sexist because he was raised to be a sexist and lived in sexist times.... then we can forgive anyone for anything based on that same logic. He lived his entire life being a sexist. A proud sexist. He is also the co-author of D&D. Two things can be true at the same time.
 

Status
Not open for further replies.
Remove ads

Remove ads

Top