D&D (2024) Should 2014 Half Elves and Half Orcs be added to the 2025 SRD?

[Minigiant]

Which brings me to the only solutions. You either completely redesign the species system with an eye towards intermixing traits, most likely though a customization system (which, knowing most players, means pure blood species will never be used. Look at how the fixed backgrounds are already being rejected for customized ones. You really think a species mixing system isn't going to be similarly used to pick all the best traits?) or you make it purely aesthetic and just pick one set of stats.

Or I guess you decide all species and subspecies are infertile. But that seems particularly bleak, despite the fact that was the norm until just recently.

OR
OR

You choose which mix species you're going to support and create a custom species for them with a combination of their parent species traits and unique ones that justify their existence.

You say we're only doing human/elves, human/orcs human/dwarfs, dwarf/halflings, gnome/halflings, abd dragonborn/kobolds and That's it.

There is no requirement to support every combination.

 

[mamba]

There is no requirement to support every combination.

maybe, but then we are back where we started, with a few more mixed races thrown in. I thought the whole point was to get away from that in the first place…

It’s definitely good enough for some and I guess I would not care either way, but when coming up with an approach to use, I’d be more inclined to start with an unrestricted mix and match along the lines of A5e over that. No matter which specific combinations you include, someone will always want one you did not

 

[Clint_L]

They've literally gone in and retconned out existing half-orc and half-elven characters from newer published content.

They have a problem with the terms half-elf and half-orc, yes. Just as people IRL have a problem with being called half-X. In fact, because people IRL have a problem with being called a half-X. That is not the same as having a problem with their “very existence.” It’s the opposite.

 

[Clint_L]

The Turani/Shou is literally the same of @Mistwell 's Korean/African example. Human heritage in 5e has no mechanical representation. Any attempt to represent such a blending is 100% RP. And we're fine with that because we wouldn't DARE give human heritages any mechanical standing. It shows that we as players tolerate the concept of mixed ancestry being only aesthetic as long as there are no mechanical elements attached.

The high/Drow example shows a much better example. They are both elves and there should be no logical reason they can't interbreed. But the two types have mechanical differences. They are 75% the same traits, but the question comes on how you represent that remaining 25%.

You could have the PC pick one subtype and flavor the other in, but that's no different than the current mixing rule people are railing against. If that works for high/drow elf, it should work for human/elf. If you argue there should be a mechanical representation of that blending, I ask how. Player picks which spells/features? Do you create a "new" subtype that represents that? There are no rules for that, so you're at the mercy of what you DM allows, which can be "customized stats" to "not allowed." I don't even know if a system like Level Up is granular enough to represent a high/drow mix. And you'd think that would be easier since they literally share the majority of the same traits! But the devil is in the details.

Suffiice to say that if "pick an elf, re flavor it to half-elf/human" is bad and possibly offensive because it reduces the effect of the second parent to only aesthetics, then the Turani/Shou should be similarly bad (both parents are only aesthetics) and the high/drow elf as bad. And we let both of these corner cases ride because nobody cared until they removed half-bteed races from the game.

Which brings me to the only solutions. You either completely redesign the species system with an eye towards intermixing traits, most likely though a customization system (which, knowing most players, means pure blood species will never be used. Look at how the fixed backgrounds are already being rejected for customized ones. You really think a species mixing system isn't going to be similarly used to pick all the best traits?) or you make it purely aesthetic and just pick one set of stats.

Or I guess you decide all species and subspecies are infertile. But that seems particularly bleak, despite the fact that was the norm until just recently.

This, but also, why stop at halves? Since all D&D species can interbreed, all blends are possible. A character can have grandparents of four different species. And could have offspring with someone whose grandparents were four other species, producing grandchildren with traits of eight different species. And so on. I challenge anyone to come up with a viable system that handles all the permutations to create distinct mechanics for each possibility while maintaining game balance and not requiring a phone book—sized tome.

Or you could do as the 2024 rules suggest and handle it through story and role play.

This whole argument seems to mostly boil down to folks wanting to retain special rules for the two Tolkien half-races.

 

[CreamCloud0]

They have a problem with the terms half-elf and half-orc, yes. Just as people IRL have a problem with being called half-X. In fact, because people IRL have a problem with being called a half-X. That is not the same as having a problem with their “very existence.” It’s the opposite.

WotC basically went "there were issues with the terminology being used so we removed the little representation that already existed and was liked and replaced it with a meaningless facade with undertones of erasure, but which allowed every superficial combination"

 

[Minigiant]

maybe, but then we are back where we started, with a few more mixed races thrown in. I thought the whole point was to get away from that in the first place

That wasn't the point?

Well it never was mine.

I never saw the need to support every combination. A system that supports 50 combinations likely has 35 boring and bland ones.

Half elves, half orcs, and half dwarves had unique mechanics their parents lacked for 2 editions now.

 

[Minigiant]

WotC basically went "there were issues with the terminology being used so we removed the little representation that already existed and was liked and replaced it with a meaningless facade with undertones of erasure, but which allowed every superficial combination"

Exactly

It's 90% a terminology issue.

But WOTC refuse to use new terms because frankly they are chicken.

They are too scared to rename half elf and half orc.

 

[Scribe]

WotC basically went "there were issues with the terminology being used so we removed the little representation that already existed and was liked and replaced it with a meaningless facade with undertones of erasure, but which allowed every superficial combination"

Its not even Wizards. Its an American Sensitivity Reader.

 

[CreamCloud0]

That wasn't the point?

Well it never was mine.

I never saw the need to support every combination. A system that supports 50 combinations likely has 35 boring and bland ones.

Half elves, half orcs, and half dwarves had unique mechanics their parents lacked for 2 editions now.

i agree, what cross-species options should be added should be added because there is a strong conceptual idea behind them, even if that idea is only something from the gameworld lore, not just because of adding combinations for combinations sake.

edit: i would rather we just have a well developed species design pointbuy subsystem and say 'if you want to be a cross-species use this to build something'

 

[Clint_L]

WotC basically went "there were issues with the terminology being used so we removed the little representation that already existed and was liked and replaced it with a meaningless facade with undertones of erasure, but which allowed every superficial combination"

What makes it a meaningless facade? IRL, cultures are entirely a product of history, arts, traditions, and so forth, not +2 to dexterity, dark vision, or whatever. Those things are far from meaningless.

The erasure, to me, seems to come from trying to reduce complex people to a few mechanics based on stereotypes, as if that is all they are. And to pick and choose who gets to be represented, while denying the existence of anyone who doesn't those few, narrow stereotypes.

I challenge folks to offer an answer to my question above: if mechanics are all that matter, why stop at halves? Why does someone who is, per my example, 1/8th of different species not matter?