D&D (2024) 2025's Ancient Green Dragon Stat Block From The New Monster Manual

The new ancient green dragon from the 2025 Monster Manual was previewed at Gen Con.

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[Reynard]

It is a CR issue. If the dragon used its breath weapon 2x (which bloodied recharge would do), then the CR would jump quite a bit.

Isn't CR based on damage per round? What is the math behind breath weapons or other big attacks?

 

[dave2008]

Isn't CR based on damage per round? What is the math behind breath weapons or other big attacks?

damage per round over 3 rounds.

breath weapon is 154 (77x2 for multi-target) vs 81 for three rends gets 105 average (just for on turn actions) per round. If you breath 2x you get 129 average. Not a huge difference, but enough to change the CR.

There are ways to make it work, but if you want a dangerous breath weapon, it kinda has to be once per combat.

 

[Stalker0]

It is definitely a thematic improvement, just not much of an improvement in damage or defense, but that wasn't going to change much as they said they were maintaining the existing CR.

they said they weren't changing the CR of creatures, doesn't mean they weren't changing the math of what a CR22 actually means in terms of AC, HP, and Damage

That said if I was double checking. The old Green Dragon did 147 avg damage (assuming 1 breath), and the new one does 186. So actually that's a 27% increase, its not tiny.

 

[dave2008]

they said they weren't changing the CR of creatures, doesn't mean they weren't changing the math of what a CR22 actually means in terms of AC, HP, and Damage

That said if I was double checking. The old Green Dragon did 147 avg damage (assuming 1 breath), and the new one does 186. So actually that's a 27% increase, its not tiny.

It all depends on the assumption for damage on the reactions. If they really have upped the DPR for a given CR that would be interesting.

 

[Stalker0]

Now personally I am a big fan of reducing the attack forms. Because the new form they gave us is a 15th foot reach with damage and poison, to me what does having it be a tail vs a bite at that point really get you?

You can flavor it however you want in terms of how the dragon's actually attacking, but the key its a simple attack with great reach that gets the job done. I don't see a reason to maintain 3 attack forms for flavor reasons.

One thing that does annoy me greatly is that the breath save DC and the spell DCs are different. Its so much easier as a DM to be able to go "players every save I ask you for agaisnt this dragon is DC 21....write it down, use it every single time". One DC to rule them all makes big encounters with lots of saves SO MUCH EASIER TO RUN. The second I have to tell my players two different DCs its like their brains fry and they forget every DC, and then I have to tell them every single time.

 

[Zaukrie]

Now personally I am a big fan of reducing the attack forms. Because the new form they gave us is a 15th foot reach with damage and poison, to me what does having it be a tail vs a bite at that point really get you?

You can flavor it however you want in terms of how the dragon's actually attacking, but the key its a simple attack with great reach that gets the job done. I don't see a reason to maintain 3 attack forms for flavor reasons.

I like what other games are starting to do, or what Bob World Builder says....name an attack Bite or Claw or Tail, there you go. It is whatever y'all want, and you don't have to list bite and claw twice even though they are the same thing (other than possibly slashing vs piercing, which as far as I know has nearly zero impact to PCs).

 

[Reynard]

damage per round over 3 rounds.

Ah.

breath weapon is 154 (77x2 for multi-target) vs 81 for three rends gets 105 average (just for on turn actions) per round. If you breath 2x you get 129 average. Not a huge difference, but enough to change the CR.

There are ways to make it work, but if you want a dangerous breath weapon, it kinda has to be once per combat.

Thanks. That makes sense.

 

[billd91]

breath weapon is 154 (77x2 for multi-target) vs 81 for three rends gets 105 average (just for on turn actions) per round. If you breath 2x you get 129 average. Not a huge difference, but enough to change the CR.

There are ways to make it work, but if you want a dangerous breath weapon, it kinda has to be once per combat.

Well... at the very least, you don't necessarily want it coming up A LOT in a single combat (but if it goes 5-6 rounds, getting it again is a reasonable expectation). Notice that with a recharge of 5-6, it has a good chance of being available once every 3 rounds, which works really well with the damage output being measured as an average of 3 rounds.

 

[Stalker0]

Notice that with a recharge of 5-6, it has a good chance of being available once every 3 rounds, which works really well with the damage output being measured as an average of 3 rounds.

Actually assuming the dragon breaths on the first round, it has a 56% chance to have 2 or 3 breaths in a 3 round combat. Meaning its MORE likely to have multiple breaths in a fight rather than just once.

 

[Clint_L]

Booo alignment is listed as "lawful evil" rather than "typically lawful evil."

I assumed from MotM that the word "typically" was the standard going forward (e.g. a Green Abisai is "typically lawful evil" despite being a devil.

This doesn't affect me as I don't use alignments anyway, but it feels like a step backwards for the game.