D&D (2024) Are single class martials still going to be viable in 2024?

[EzekielRaiden]

What's this "still" business?

Apart from a few (usually pretty minor) nerfs, characters with zero spell access (non-EK Fighters, non-AT Rogues, etc.) are doing much better in 5.5e than they were in 5.0.

 

[MonsterEnvy]

Slowing down spell casting is not a thing for Monks or most Fighters. A Paladin who dips Warlock gets a rechargable 1st level slot and better spell options. So the spells is a minor concern for rangers at some levels.

I guess if you are building primarily a Ranger spell caster that is an issue at even levels. That is something I do sometimes so I get it. But for a primary weapon user I think you are a lot better and you are only talking about 1 level lower and only on even levels.

If you are talking about martial abilities you are not slowing your growth, you are greatly accelerating it. Your Ranger-Monk dip gets 3 attacks at level 2. Your fighter-Monk gets 3 attacks if you go light or a 2nd attack if you go heavy. Your Paladin gets a short-rest recahrgable smite.

Level 2 blows away a single class level 2. That narrows at higher levels, but like I said except level 5 you are ahead of the single class build pretty much everywhere.

I just don’t see it. It’s a sidegrade at most.

 

[ECMO3]

I just don’t see it. It’s a sidegrade at most.

In terms of numbers it isn't. It is mathematically better at every level except 5th.

For example:

A single class fighter gets 1 attack at level 2 and 2 attacks at level 6. A Monk-Fighter gets 2 and 3 (or 3 and 4 with nick weapons).

A single class Monk gets 2 attacks at level 2 or 3 attacks when they FOB. A level 2 Monk-Fighter or Ranger with nick gets 3 attacks every single round. A single class Monk gets 3 attacks at level 6 or 4 attacks when they FOB, A Monk5-Fighter1 or Ranger1 gets 4 attacks all the time or 5 attacks when they FOB.

 

[MonsterEnvy]

With a Monk dip you are getting an extra attack at level 2, 3 and 4.

With a Warlock dip you have a spell slot and you attack with Charisma, letting you prioritize that. When you say "delay extra attack" that is only at level 5, and at that level you will admittedly be worse than a single-class fighter. But at level 2, 3, 4, 6-10 that is not relevant.

I don’t like my other Fighter Abilities being delayed either. Also the extra attack would be weaker.

I could also just prioritize Strength, and have the ability to self heal and buff my ability checks.

 

[Minigiant]

Slowing down spell casting is not a thing for Monks or most Fighters. A Paladin who dips Warlock gets a rechargable 1st level slot and better spell options. So the spells is a minor concern for rangers at some levels

You are slowing down the attacks.

Especially in a game where people barely get too level 12.

Since 3e, D&D has been a tier based game. You gotta hit your tier quota.

And that's the thing If you're playing in a high optimization game what you're trying to abuse multclassing, The single class characters are hitting their tiered powers faster than you and have more resources to boost their power.

I guess if you are building primarily a Ranger spell caster that is an issue at even levels. That is something I do sometimes so I get it. But for a primary weapon user I think you are a lot better and you are only talking about 1 level lower and only on even levels.

Multicasting with a primary weapon user before level 6 is a trap unless you're using some specialized cheese build.

Extra attack is too powerful to delay because that time around level 5 is when DMs can go pull out monsters that also have similarly strong Tier 2 abilities.

If you are talking about martial abilities you are not slowing your growth, you are greatly accelerating it. Your Ranger-Monk dip gets 3 attacks at level 2. Your fighter-Monk gets 3 attacks if you go light or a 2nd attack if you go heavy. Your Paladin gets a short-rest recahrgable smite

It depends on how important that extra unarmed strike bonus action is What you gave up to utilize it

A dual-wheeler can do wield and eventually get dual there and get what they would have got with the monk dip without slowing their class progression

That's why it's not as good anymore because you have to now pump up your wisdom to do something that you can spend a feet eventually on.

You get a powerful level 2 but you eventually get surpassed by the single class until the singer class plateaus which is usually in the teens.

It's the old prestige class problem of 3rd edition but worse. Because instead of extremely powerful prestige classes, you get a gimmick that doesn't progress and are hoping the stacking with the parts you delay is worth it

 

[TiQuinn]

I don’t know - one level dips have been a thing for 20+ years now. I don’t foresee it getting worse or better. If you’re a player looking to optimize, you’ll always be looking at the level dips no matter what. In the end, what do the mechanics of a particular character matter as long as it’s not breaking anything in the game (something I’ve generally not seen) and the player is having fun?

 

[ECMO3]

What's this "still" business?

Apart from a few (usually pretty minor) nerfs, characters with zero spell access (non-EK Fighters, non-AT Rogues, etc.) are doing much better in 5.5e than they were in 5.0.

Yes but the dips give them far more than they used to.

A Martial is a weak build in 5E and remains that way, but the dips did not offer as much as they do now because significant subclass abilities were not available at 1st level. Weapon Masteries, nick, Pact of the Blade and the new Martial Arts rules make 1st level far more significant for a Martial dip now.

 

[Whizbang Dustyboots]

Why would fighters want to attack with charisma?

It worked for Muhammad Ali.

 

[MonsterEnvy]

The fact that you think pure Martials are weak is showing that you don’t really understand this.

 

[EzekielRaiden]

Yes but the dips give them far more than they used to.

I disagree. I mean, it's not like Hexblade wasn't a thing in 5.0, so that part is already unchanged, and the bonus action punch from Monk really isn't that good if you aren't, y'know, gaining more Monk levels. You have inflated the value of these things in my opinion.

A Martial is a weak build in 5E and remains that way,

For reasons that have nothing to do with the things you're complaining about.

but the dips did not offer as much as they do now because significant subclass abilities were not available at 1st level.

Except most "significant subclass abilities" have been shifted to 3rd level? I have no idea what your complaint even is here.

Weapon Masteries, nick, Pact of the Blade and the new Martial Arts rules make 1st level far more significant for a Martial dip now.

Only "martial"-type characters get weapon masteries. The new Martial Arts is a d6 bonus action. You could already get that by having a hand axe, scimitar, or short sword in your off hand. This die will almost certainly be tied to Monk level rather than character level, so you're not going to be making a 1d12 bonus action attack with a 1-level Monk dip. Something you can replace with literally a different equipment choice is not, and never was, a meaningful change.

The only people who can make use of Nick are Barbarians, Fighters, Paladins, Rangers, and Rogues. In other words...that's a power up specifically to martial characters. It's not something you even need to dip for.

Pact of the Blade is effectively unchanged (for the things you have mentioned, anyway)