D&D (2024) Are single class martials still going to be viable in 2024?

[mellored]

It is an extra attack every single round at every single level except 5 and the same number of attacks at level 5.

Level 1 monk is ahead in damage with their bonus action.
Level 2 monk has flurry of blows 2/ short rest. So Nick is ahead only after the 3rd round of each short rest.
Level 3 monk has deflect attack. Nick does more damage.
Level 4 monk gets Nick and stays a focus point ahead for the rest of the game.

So fighter 1/monk is only slightly ahead for 1 short level.

I think Pact of the Blade allows you to use Charisma with any weapon.

It does.
But it doesn't let you ignore the Heavy (13 Str) property. Nor does it let you ignore the heavy armor (15 Str).


Starting 15 Str / 17 Cha.
Then picking up +1 Str from PAM
And +1 Str from GWM
Leaves you with 17 Str and 17 Cha.

Not sure what you gained.

Martial Arts starts as a 1d6 so martial arts with a Pole Arm is going to do more damage than PAM by itself without requiring a feat and getting it at level 2.

Yea, but you get multi-attack a level later, and Great Weapon Master a level later.

Not sure that's worth 1d4 -> 1d6 damage.

Going with a 2d6 weapon+martial arts will do substantially more damage than PAM alone and the best part is you are tied to Pole Arms specifically.

Depends on how many reaction strikes PAM gives you.
And how often you use reach.

You can do this with any magic weapon you find.

True.
But that might not be a 2d6 weapon.

Dipping monk 1 does seem more competitive that dipping warlock.

 

[ECMO3]

You are stuck on the number of attacks.
You are forgetting the quality of the attacks.

An unarmed strike unless you are an unarmed build is not going to stack with your normal weapon attack.

Yes it absolutely will. Unarmed Strike can be done as a bonus action by a first level Monk and it is completely independant of your weapon attack. You can use two weapon fighting without using your bonus action if you have mastery and one of your light weapons has Nick.

Unarmed strike starts at 1d6, equal to the best light weapons and the point is it is an extra attack in all cases.

If you are a single class fighter wielding a greatsword with a 20 strength your damage is:
12 DPR at level 2-4
24 DPR at level 5
24 DPR at level 6-10

If you are a fighter with a 20 strength and a 1 level dip in Monk and a greatsword and martial arts your damage is:
20.5 DPR at level 2-4
20.5 DPR at level 5
32.5 DPR at level 6-10

If you are a fighter with a 20 strength using a hand axe and a shortsword your damage is:
17 DPR at level 2-4
24.5 DPR at level 5
24.5 DPR at level 6-10

If you are a fighter with a 20 strength and a 1-level Monk dip your damage is:
24.5 DPR at level 2
24.5 DPR at level 5
33 DPR at level 6

Note this does not consider critical hits or the other mastery riders.

Keyword Weapon.

There are magic weapons, feats, and masteries a weapon gets.

It's a 1d6+Mod punch that never upgrades because you don't progress in monk and you delay your feats.

There is no such thing as resistance to non-magic damage in 2024, so that does not matter nearly as much as it does in 5E. I agree that magic items will boost weapon damage more, but the unarmed strike damage is extra damage.

My PC gets a magic weapon.

You would get that if you were multiclassed and since you will be using it for the same number of attacks you will be getting the same benefit from it.

My PC gets a feat that boosts weapon

In a game from level 2 to 10 this matters at level 4 and level 8 only (and level 6 for a fighter). It is completely irrelevant at every other level. Meaning it is completely irrelevant for most of the game.

My PC applies a Mastery to a weapon.

As does every example I gave above. That is the whole point of never playing a single-classed Monk.

 

[MonsterEnvy]

It just doesn’t seem worth it to me.

monk/fighter and fighter/monk both seem like bad multi class choices especially at low levels.

 

[WanderingMystic]

All Classes: you get your subclass at lvl 3 so for me taking a multi class dip before then is something I don't think I would personally ever do with a few rare exceptions.

Fighter: You can get your bonus action attack at level 4 when you can pick up a feat, that combined with the fact that the unarmed attacks from a monk will never really synergies with everything else you have. I could see a dip if you are trying to focus on unarmed but you lose out on your weapon masteries.

Fighter is a great level 1 starter for any character (bard, cleric, monk, warlock) that wants weapon mastery, all weapons, all armor, fighting styles and con proficiency.

Monk: I can see the argument for a 1 level dip into fighter, ranger or rogue.

Ranger: So I love the idea of a 1 level dip into monk, a ranger wants a good wisdom so the unarmored and bonus action attack can be good for you.

Rogue: I can see a monk dip for the unarmored defense and bonus attack.

 

[FrogReaver]

Till I can actually get the rules in front of me and then easily crunch some numbers I’m not to keen on optimization.

That said. You really have to do a level by level. An extra d6+mod attack is probably better than action surge at all but the highest levels and an asi until level 5 (a few feats may be better). For subclass features it depends on subclass but I’d prefer the Battlemaster manuevers over the d6+mod bonus action attack.

Extra attack at 5th is obviously better.

6th is a toss up. ASI can be better. Just depends on specifics.

7th is in multiclass favor

8th is again a tossup

9th I’d give to solo fighter. Indiminatable is actually good now.

10th multiclassed is better

11th solo is better.

Personally I’d give levels 3, 5 and 9, 11 to the single classes fighter. I’d give levels 2, 4, 7, 10 to the monk dip fighter.

The other levels I’d call even. The thing is the single class fighter is much better at the levels he is better than the monk dipped fighter is.

 

[FrogReaver]

One thing I do like about the monk dip is that he can use dex to shove and grapple.

 

[ECMO3]

Level 1 monk is ahead in damage with their bonus action.

Level 2 monk has flurry of blows 2/ short rest. So Nick is ahead only after the 3rd round of each short rest.

Not really. The base damage is the same for 2 rounds peer short rest and lower for all the other rounds.

However in addition to Nick, the Monk also gets weapon mastery in the light weapon that is not Nick, meaning the multiclass is ahead even on the rounds where the 2nd level Monk would use FOB.

Level 4 monk gets Nick and stays a focus point ahead for the rest of the game.

And only has one Weapon Mastery so he is not ahead, he is still behind after spending a feat because the multiclass is getting mastery bonuses from two weapons every turn instead of only getting it from Nick.

So fighter 1/monk is only slightly ahead for 1 short level.

No he is not, he will be ahead the whole game.

It does.
But it doesn't let you ignore the Heavy (13 Str) property. Nor does it let you ignore the heavy armor (15 Str).

I don't know that 15 will be the requirement for heavy armor, but even if it is, the investment for a 15 and maxing strength is significant and more so when you consider the Paladin aslo uses Charisma for his aura and spells.

Starting 15 Str / 17 Cha.
Then picking up +1 Str from PAM
And +1 Str from GWM
Leaves you with 17 Str and 17 Cha.

You can get better Feats, bump Charisma and not lose any damage.

On point buy: Start with a 14S, 17Charisma

Then take GWM at level 5 (boosting strength to get your plate) and then get a Charisma feat to do more damage than you would with PAM while also having a higher Constitution.

Not sure what you gained.

Yea, but you get multi-attack a level later, and Great Weapon Master a level later.

You actually get GWM three levels earlier (level 5) because you would not even get PAM (your martial arts attack does more damage than your PAM bonus).

Also PAM works great in a white room, but in play it ties you to a few weapons. Everyone I have seen play PAM has eventually switched to a staff or something that did not work with it at all, because there are not many really good magic Glaives or Halberds in most campaigns. If you want to use it in play you are probably going to eventually switch to a staff because there are not many weapons that work with it besides staff.

Not sure that's worth 1d4 -> 1d6 damage.

It is worth it at every level except level 5.

 

[Minigiant]

Yes it absolutely will. Unarmed Strike can be done as a bonus action by a first level Monk and it is completely independant of your weapon attack. You can use two weapon fighting without using your bonus action if you have mastery and one of your light weapons has Nick.

...
...

The unarmed strike is not a weapon.

When the DM gives you a +1 weapon, You cannot use it with your bonus action unarmed strike.

You'r unarmed strike does not have a mastery.

Your unarmed strike does not get damaged bonuses from feets.

So your 1 level dip unarmed strike is 1d6+Mod with no mastery forever.

 

[ECMO3]

Fighter: You can get your bonus action attack at level 4 when you can pick up a feat, that combined with the fact that the unarmed attacks from a monk will never really synergies with everything else you have. I could see a dip if you are trying to focus on unarmed but you lose out on your weapon masteries.

Why would you lose your weapon masteries?

For a fighter, the whole point is to attack with weapons using your action, using weapon masteries and then getting a free martial arts attack you would not otherwise have.

For the Monk the whole point is to get the weapon mastery, to include an extra attack with nick while keeping the bonus action martial arts attack.

 

[WanderingMystic]

Fighter W twohanded heavy weapon Cleve or Topple
DPR: 11 lvl 1-3 str 17 two-handed weapon style
DPR: 21 lvl 4 str 18 two-handed weapon style, GWM assuming bonus action attack every other round
DPR: 35 lvl 5 str 18 two-handed weapon style, GWM assuming bonus action attack every other round, 2 attacks

Fighter W two 1 handed weapons Nic
DPR: 13 lvl 1-3 dex 17 two weapon style
DPR: 22.5 lvl 4 dex 18 two weapon style, DW bonus action attack
DPR: 30 lvl 5 dex 18 two weapon style, DW bonus attack, 2 attacks