D&D General Who shouldn't play D&D

Status
Not open for further replies.

log in or register to remove this ad

I would say designing your game to remove or re-define those aspects is perfectly fine. When you start doing that to other people's games, however, you will get some pushback, if for no other reason than a lot of folks don't want to customize their game.
Is that what you (general you) are doing, by saying the game should reflect what you like, not necessarily what the broader public likes?
 

Which preferences does D&D not cater to? Like if you want X out of TTRPGs, don't play D&D and go play some other game instead??
Surely the most straightforward answer is that anyone who wants to play an RPG but doesn't want to play fairly generic faux-medieval/renaissance* fantasy should probably avoid D&D?

Also, depending on what you like about RPGs, D&D 5E can be a pretty bad choice. Like, if you want mechanics that support the themes and ideas of the game, and really line up to create something that's focused and intense and about a specific thing, D&D is not that RPG. To be fair it hasn't been since AD&D existed (it could be argued before that it was, for a specific kind of dungeon crawling).

Equally, if you don't like mass slaughter, and "killing things and taking their stuff", whilst D&D is technically viable to not play like that, that is still the dominant mode of play, it is what the game is fundamentally about, and even the lighter-hearted kinder adventures of the WotC era still very much tend to come back to that, because it's kind of the main game loop.

Mechanically, if you don't enjoy missing and failing a lot, even at things you're good at, and a lot of rolls that don't really advance the game, D&D is not the game for you, because there's an awful lot of that, more than the vast majority of TT RPGs. D&D 5E is the game of whiffing, and watching a guy with a negative modifier succeed at a task you heavily invested in but failed at. Also, if you don't enjoy martial characters being a kind of second-class-citizen outside of combat, D&D 5E isn't ideal.

I could go on. I think it should perhaps be uncontroversial that if it was reasonably easy to find players for basically any RPG, D&D would have far fewer players. It might still be the biggest single RPG, but I really strongly suspect that if we could reliably conjure players for literally any RPG (or even just "successful" ones, however you define that), actual WotC current-edition D&D would have an audience share of like 10%, at most.

An awful lot of the responses to this post seem to be conflating "D&D" and "RPGs in general", and I think that's very unhelpful.

* = I would argue that at this point "light steampunk elements" are a typical part of "generic fantasy" in games - whether TT RPGs or videogames.
 
Last edited:

I would say designing your game to remove or re-define those aspects is perfectly fine. When you start doing that to other people's games, however, you will get some pushback, if for no other reason than a lot of folks don't want to customize their game.
The use of "your" vs "other people's" games seems odd here. D&D is surely WotC's game, no, not your game? Or does this apply as soon as a licence is sold beyond the original designers, or the original designers cease being involved (which in D&D's case, would be in the 1980s)?

The underlying question here seems to be "Should a TT RPG make big changes as its potential audience changes, as its designers change, as design ideas change, or should attempt to maintain a specific form forever, regardless of the rest?". One might compare D&D and Call of Cthulhu. I would argue CoC has largely done the latter, and is relatively successful despite/because of that.

But there's a key difference between CoC and D&D. CoC had a very clear vision of what it wanted to emulate, and pushed hard towards that. Whether it has been entirely successful is debatable, but there was that clear and specific vision of emulating Cthulhu Mythos stuff in a TT RPG framework, right down to the protagonists often dying, fleeing, being driven insane, or a mixture of all three. As such it's only made relatively small iterative changes, because even the initial framework fit this pretty well.

D&D has never had the same clarity of vision. The closest it came to clarity of vision was the divisive 4E. D&D has always been vague, amorphous, always adding random new things which seemed cool or reflected pop culture at the time. Just look at 1E's Monk, for example. There's a tiny space of time and culture where that particular thing as a D&D class "made sense" (and indeed I've seen convincing evidence it's largely derived from a specific set of novels). But D&D blobbed it in, and whilst it was largely absent from 2E, it's been part of all other editions.

D&D also saw vast changes in gameplay focus in the 1980s, as people moved increasingly away from campaigns focused on dungeon crawling and sandboxes, towards for more adventure or scenario-focused play, and moved away from dodgy shady characters like Fafhrd and the Grey Mouser as their character role models, toward more straightforwardly heroic ones (as per Dragonlance etc.). Even now, the characters, whilst often cloaked in a layer of faux-ironic detachment, remain pretty reliably more heroic than early D&D seemed to be designed for.

I could go on. My point is though, D&D has never had a consistent vision, always been a game in flux. Expecting that to stop at some point doesn't really make sense. It's why D&D has been so successful - if D&D had frozen in, say, 1E form, and just slowly upgraded 1E, it'd have died in the 1990s, no question*, imho. So these sort of complaints would make sense if CoC suddenly abandoned its commitment to the Mythos and everyone dying horribly, but make little sense with D&D, which has always changed.

* = I think the brand would have been reborn sometime in the early '10s even if it did die in the 1990s, note, but what we got wouldn't have looked anything like any edition of D&D, rules-wise. Probably something more like FFG Star Wars but with D&D tropes or something - or just some then-popular RPG system reworked to support old D&D classes/tropes. EDIT - Also re: died, that's because of TSR's direction, note. If TSR had sold it to someone smaller, not someone ambitious like WotC, I think it's quite likely that for at few years or a decade or so at least, it would have got the "CoC" treatment you seem to want. I.e. it would have been locked into basically 1E/2E rules, with slight improvements/changes/revisions just to keep books selling. But they'd have had a small audience/market share, and D&D would likely have been seen as this "old people" game. What would have happened in the 2010s in that case is an interesting question - my suspicion is they'd have been bought by some other company, one uninterested in D&D's legacy or rules, only its IP.
 
Last edited:

Is that what you (general you) are doing, by saying the game should reflect what you like, not necessarily what the broader public likes?
I suppose so, yes. It's understandable (heck, you know I do it), but you have to expect that pushback I mentioned.
 

The use of "your" vs "other people's" games seems odd here. D&D is surely WotC's game, no, not your game? Or does this apply as soon as a licence is sold beyond the original designers, or the original designers cease being involved (which in D&D's case, would be in the 1980s)?

The underlying question here seems to be "Should a TT RPG make big changes as its potential audience changes, as its designers change, as design ideas change, or should attempt to maintain a specific form forever, regardless of the rest?". One might compare D&D and Call of Cthulhu. I would argue CoC has largely done the latter, and is relatively successful despite/because of that.

But there's a key difference between CoC and D&D. CoC had a very clear vision of what it wanted to emulate, and pushed hard towards that. Whether it has been entirely successful is debatable, but there was that clear and specific vision of emulating Cthulhu Mythos stuff in a TT RPG framework, right down to the protagonists often dying, fleeing, being driven insane, or a mixture of all three. As such it's only made relatively small iterative changes, because even the initial framework fit this pretty well.

D&D has never had the same clarity of vision. The closest it came to clarity of vision was the divisive 4E. D&D has always been vague, amorphous, always adding random new things which seemed cool or reflected pop culture at the time. Just look at 1E's Monk, for example. There's a tiny space of time and culture where that particular thing as a D&D class "made sense" (and indeed I've seen convincing evidence it's largely derived from a specific set of novels). But D&D blobbed it in, and whilst it was largely absent from 2E, it's been part of all other editions.

D&D also saw vast changes in gameplay focus in the 1980s, as people moved increasingly away from campaigns focused on dungeon crawling and sandboxes, towards for more adventure or scenario-focused play, and moved away from dodgy shady characters like Fafhrd and the Grey Mouser as their character role models, toward more straightforwardly heroic ones (as per Dragonlance etc.). Even now, the characters, whilst often cloaked in a layer of faux-ironic detachment, remain pretty reliably more heroic than early D&D seemed to be designed for.

I could go on. My point is though, D&D has never had a consistent vision, always been a game in flux. Expecting that to stop at some point doesn't really make sense. It's why D&D has been so successful - if D&D had frozen in, say, 1E form, and just slowly upgraded 1E, it'd have died in the 1990s, no question*, imho. So these sort of complaints would make sense if CoC suddenly abandoned its commitment to the Mythos and everyone dying horribly, but make little sense with D&D, which has always changed.

* = I think the brand would have been reborn sometime in the early '10s even if it did die in the 1990s, note, but what we got wouldn't have looked anything like any edition of D&D, rules-wise. Probably something more like FFG Star Wars but with D&D tropes or something - or just some then-popular RPG system reworked to support old D&D classes/tropes. EDIT - Also re: died, that's because of TSR's direction, note. If TSR had sold it to someone smaller, not someone ambitious like WotC, I think it's quite likely that for at few years or a decade or so at least, it would have got the "CoC" treatment you seem to want. I.e. it would have been locked into basically 1E/2E rules, with slight improvements/changes/revisions just to keep books selling. But they'd have had a small audience/market share, and D&D would likely have been seen as this "old people" game. What would have happened in the 2010s in that case is an interesting question - my suspicion is they'd have been bought by some other company, one uninterested in D&D's legacy or rules, only its IP.
"Your" in this context means your personal game at your table with your players. Change that to your heart's content. Change the game at the publishing level, and people who liked it the way it was will push back.

Regarding your other comments (my opinion following, obviously), for me personally the issue was that, even though as you say the design philosophy began changing as early as Dragonlance (if not before), the game itself was not so changed it couldn't be easily played the old way until 4e was released. Early 5e gave that older style a sort of reprieve for a while, but starting with Tasha's the newer paradigm began to reassert itself mechanically again, and the ball has been rolling faster and faster since then. If you have been playing since 1e or before as I have, and liked TSR's game, you could approximate it in the current rules until quite recently (excepting 4e), at least in a broad strokes fashion. To my mind this is no longer the case, hence my moving on to other games that suit me better (tough after all these years, but it is what it is).
 

Did you mean "Marcie"?

0046_03.gif
I was gonna say, if you watched Dark Dungeons and was motivated to try D&D to summon demons with it, you're going to be disappointed.

I mean, I tried. I wound up summoning a rules lawyer instead.

/ The group unanimously agreed that summoning a demon would've been preferable. D&D: Not once.
 
Last edited:

There's one group of people I should mention. People who can't find a good DM.

If people don't want rules to control how the game works, then it'll all be up to DM judgement to make the game work. So naturally a good DM is the most important factor in your D&D game. If you can't find a good DM, you might as well not play.
 

If people don't want rules to control how the game works, then it'll all be up to DM judgement to make the game work. So naturally a good DM is the most important factor in your D&D game. If you can't find a good DM, you might as well not play.
I don't really get this. I mean, I've got no objection to good GMing - but I don't get the relationship between that and rules. The rules of the game should tell the GM when to do their stuff, and what they're meant to be doing. And then, for the game to be good, that stuff had better be good!
 

I don't really get this. I mean, I've got no objection to good GMing - but I don't get the relationship between that and rules. The rules of the game should tell the GM when to do their stuff, and what they're meant to be doing. And then, for the game to be good, that stuff had better be good!
For most RPGs they transcend beyond the label of "just a game". It is the thing that makes RPGs special. There are a couple games where the player must first make "Player Action One" and then and only then may the player called DM look in the rule book and see they are allowed to take "DM Action One" now that the player has given them permision to do so. But the vast majority of games are not like that.

In the vast majority of game the DM just does what they want, on a whim. And you want and need a good DM to have a good game.

---------------------------
But who should not play....hummmm

1.People bad at math
2.People with little or no imagination
3.Hostile 'win at all costs' type folk
 

Status
Not open for further replies.
Remove ads

Top