D&D General Who shouldn't play D&D

Status
Not open for further replies.
But it can handle a game not focused on combat and violence quite well. And the example I keep giving, Wild Beyond the Witchlight, isn't the only one. It's not the only one for 5e (Candlekeep Mysteries has more like that), and it's not even exclusive to 5e.

I'll gladly agree that it's possible to play D&D without combat. It's often fun to play with the extremities of a system. Like doing a pacifist run in Metal Gear Solid XYZ or a no sword run of Zelda, it's a great way to experiment, and explore things in a different way.

This is where should differs from can't. If you've got a group that's been playing D&D for years and wants to shake things up, a non-violent campaign could be fun. Or maybe if you have a group that you want to ease into D&D, but need a non-violent introduction (most likely younger kids), it would be a way to teach them the system for later. But if you have a group that has never played D&D before, and has no interest in ever using combat? I'll still say, IMNSHO, you should stay away from D&D in that situation, and should be able to find a different system that fits the group's needs better. The same way that a group of people who want combat and roleplaying should play D&D instead of Monopoly.

"tyranny of fun"

One of the cardinal sins of game "theory" is the conflation of an opinion with some sort of "correctness" or pseudo-academic concensus.
 
Last edited:

log in or register to remove this ad

Daztur

Hero
D&D is not a choice between storytelling and combat. It's a spectrum which includes storytelling, politics, espionage, skill challenges, diplomacy, riddles, traps, exploration, survival, and so many other aspects. D&D functions quite well for many varied aspects, including combat. But even combat need not involve a serious threat of PC death. Indeed, MOST combat doesn't involve a serious threat of PC death in most games. And as I mentioned to Lakesidefantasy, there are adventures which appeal to people like the hypothetical Mindy, or the very real daughter I have, which don't involve a serious threat of PC death but are also not just storytelling.
That's all true. You can totally play D&D without any combat. Just like you can totally run a mass battle game with D&D rules or a science fiction game with D&D rules.

There are just other RPGs that would be VASTLY VASTLY better suited to such a campaign than D&D.
 

EzekielRaiden

Follower of the Way
Who shouldn't play D&D?

Bigots would be a big one, but I assume things of that nature are a given, so I'll move on to more interesting ones.

People who need to be the absolute best. I don't mean people who like optimizing (in part because yours truly likes a little optimization himself), I mean people who specifically need whatever it is they're playing to be better than what everyone else is playing. The people who need to feel like they're "winning" even in a cooperative game. They're a plague on both game design and at-the-table play.

People who have no interest in actually interacting with others. D&D isn't a solitaire game. It never will be. You're much better served writing D&D-inspired fanfiction or engaging with jumpchain stuff or the like. Folks who just don't want to actually play with other people--not even a single other person (because "one player and one DM" is a valid approach to D&D, albeit a difficult and often poorly-fitting one)--should not play D&D. It is, inherently, a social activity to at least the absolute bare minimum extent that it requires two people to talk to each other and share their thoughts and ideas.

People who refuse to understand that meaningful conflict is the soul of drama, that meaningful limitations breed creativity, that meaningful flaws create interesting characters, that meaningful challenges leave lasting memories, that meaningful choices are essential to investment, etc., etc. There's an awful lot of advice out there that leaves out that repeated word: meaningful. It is outright false to say that all conflict necessarily leads to good drama; there's an absolute crapload of bad drama built on crappy foundations and uninteresting conflicts (the eight dreaded words: "I don't care what happens to these people.") If all limitations always produce creativity, then we should obviously play with both hands tied behind our backs, blindfolded and gagged, because that clearly creates just about the most maximal (non-permanent) limitations we could have, right?! Except that that's obviously ridiculous. Same goes for all the rest.

This one's gonna be controversial, but I strongly believe it nonetheless. People who make an argument based on the Stormwind fallacy (that optimization prevents roleplay; that roleplay prevents optimization; or that "bad" as in badly-built characters are necessarily richer or better or fuller or more interesting than "good"/well-built characters), the Oberoni fallacy (no game system ever has problems, because if it has a problem, the DM can always Rule Zero it away), Reductio ad videogame (insert game of preference here: WoW, Diablo, whatever, because obviously video games are the worst thing ever?), or DM/player arms race excuses ("it's fine if players can do stupid BS, because that stupid BS can then be used against them by the DM"). All of these arise from arguing in bad faith. There are ways to make every one of these arguments without bad faith: "when players excessively focus on optimization, it pulls them away from thinking of the game as a living, breathing world, and these rules give lots of incentive for optimization" is a perfectly valid argument that doesn't commit the Stormwind fallacy; "you call this a problem when it isn't actually a problem at all, you're wrong to call it so" or "whatever problems you see in this are very clearly rare edge cases, and rare edge cases are one of the most important applications of Rule Zero" are both perfectly valid alternatives to Oberoni. Etc.

And, finally: People who refuse to consider that gameplay styles they personally don't like are part of what D&D is and should be. I find most Gygaxian-style ultra-logistical dungeon-heisting to be painfully, painfully boring, the equivalent of filling out one's taxes in triplicate in order to listen to one's favorite song...each and every time you want to listen to that song. Doesn't mean that style should be given short shrift; it means that the rules for it need to be opt in, rather than opt out. As much as possible, opt-in rules for various playstyles should be supported, hence my advocacy for robust, well-made, accessible "novice level" rules despite the fact that I have negative desire to ever play or use such rules. Folks who think that sort of thing is a pointless waste of time are not, in my not-so-humble opinion, productive voices within the D&D community.
 

Umbran

Mod Squad
Staff member
Supporter
I think the thread's maim problem is that the focus is on the people who should or should not play. That's fraught gatekeepery sounding stuff.

If this had been phrased instead as "What forms or aspects of play is D&D, as written, not very good at?" it would have been an entirely different discussion.
 

EzekielRaiden

Follower of the Way
The bold bit.nicely describes "people who shouldn't play D&D.".
Wow. What a terribly pretentious, horrendous attitude. "Obviously, anyone who ever gets upset about the things that happen in a game is bad for the game." Particularly when 5e has done far more to remove, as it says, "edges and contours" than 4e ever did.
 

EzekielRaiden

Follower of the Way
As I don't have any of these games, I would have no idea on specific.
So...you openly admit to the fact that you are making up boogeymen, rather than actually talking about any existing game?

For goodness' sake, if you're going to make an argument like this, you could at least name one RPG that actually works that way.

Well, the DM is beyond the rules, that might be where you don't see it.
What does that even mean?
 

Umbran

Mod Squad
Staff member
Supporter
People who refuse to understand that meaningful conflict is the soul of drama, that meaningful limitations breed creativity, that meaningful flaws create interesting characters, that meaningful challenges leave lasting memories, that meaningful choices are essential to investment, etc., etc. There's an awful lot of advice out there that leaves out that repeated word: meaningful.

Corrollary: People who are not willing to discuss and come to a table agreement on what "meaningful" means for a particular campaign probably shouldn't be playing either.
 

EzekielRaiden

Follower of the Way
Corrollary: People who are not willing to discuss and come to a table agreement on what "meaningful" means for a particular campaign probably shouldn't be playing either.
True, though I had understood this to be implied by the combination of the quoted section and the preceding one (you must be willing to communicate with another person).
 

Which preferences does D&D not cater to? Like if you want X out of TTRPGs, don't play D&D and go play some other game instead??
Religious zealots, I have heard or read multiple stories about hardcore Christians demanding the world, the party, the mechanics and story all bend to their views, where there is only one true god and it's Christian one, all magic is inherently evil, etc. And even worse when the DM and do stuff like have PCs be curbstomped by overpowered Christian crusaders, who autodispell and autocounter all their magic with "power of faith", because DM wanted to run a "christian colonialism" power fantasy at players' expense.
 


Status
Not open for further replies.

Split the Hoard


Split the Hoard
Negotiate, demand, or steal the loot you desire!

A competitive card game for 2-5 players
Remove ads

Top