D&D General Who shouldn't play D&D

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Umbran

Mod Squad
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True, though I had understood this to be implied by the combination of the quoted section and the preceding one (you must be willing to communicate with another person).

Yes, well, for one thing, I don't think it is implied in the post I quoted (see below). And, even if it is implied, that which is implied is often the source of misunderstanding. Implication is an uncertain mode of communication, at best.

Being willing to interact with people in general does not itself necessarily include the idea that there may need to be interaction about interaction.

This isn't about being "the best" - this is about having mutual understandings of the point, themes, and style of the exercise.

Which, come to think of it, beings e to another point you made which I don't agree with. People who believe Oberoni or Stormwind fallacies can play just fine, so long as they are playing with people of similar mindset. Those positions become an issue when applied broadly, but can be fine at a table where everyone agrees on how things are going to go.
 
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Micah Sweet

Level Up & OSR Enthusiast
Who shouldn't play D&D?

Bigots would be a big one, but I assume things of that nature are a given, so I'll move on to more interesting ones.

People who need to be the absolute best. I don't mean people who like optimizing (in part because yours truly likes a little optimization himself), I mean people who specifically need whatever it is they're playing to be better than what everyone else is playing. The people who need to feel like they're "winning" even in a cooperative game. They're a plague on both game design and at-the-table play.

People who have no interest in actually interacting with others. D&D isn't a solitaire game. It never will be. You're much better served writing D&D-inspired fanfiction or engaging with jumpchain stuff or the like. Folks who just don't want to actually play with other people--not even a single other person (because "one player and one DM" is a valid approach to D&D, albeit a difficult and often poorly-fitting one)--should not play D&D. It is, inherently, a social activity to at least the absolute bare minimum extent that it requires two people to talk to each other and share their thoughts and ideas.

People who refuse to understand that meaningful conflict is the soul of drama, that meaningful limitations breed creativity, that meaningful flaws create interesting characters, that meaningful challenges leave lasting memories, that meaningful choices are essential to investment, etc., etc. There's an awful lot of advice out there that leaves out that repeated word: meaningful. It is outright false to say that all conflict necessarily leads to good drama; there's an absolute crapload of bad drama built on crappy foundations and uninteresting conflicts (the eight dreaded words: "I don't care what happens to these people.") If all limitations always produce creativity, then we should obviously play with both hands tied behind our backs, blindfolded and gagged, because that clearly creates just about the most maximal (non-permanent) limitations we could have, right?! Except that that's obviously ridiculous. Same goes for all the rest.

This one's gonna be controversial, but I strongly believe it nonetheless. People who make an argument based on the Stormwind fallacy (that optimization prevents roleplay; that roleplay prevents optimization; or that "bad" as in badly-built characters are necessarily richer or better or fuller or more interesting than "good"/well-built characters), the Oberoni fallacy (no game system ever has problems, because if it has a problem, the DM can always Rule Zero it away), Reductio ad videogame (insert game of preference here: WoW, Diablo, whatever, because obviously video games are the worst thing ever?), or DM/player arms race excuses ("it's fine if players can do stupid BS, because that stupid BS can then be used against them by the DM"). All of these arise from arguing in bad faith. There are ways to make every one of these arguments without bad faith: "when players excessively focus on optimization, it pulls them away from thinking of the game as a living, breathing world, and these rules give lots of incentive for optimization" is a perfectly valid argument that doesn't commit the Stormwind fallacy; "you call this a problem when it isn't actually a problem at all, you're wrong to call it so" or "whatever problems you see in this are very clearly rare edge cases, and rare edge cases are one of the most important applications of Rule Zero" are both perfectly valid alternatives to Oberoni. Etc.

And, finally: People who refuse to consider that gameplay styles they personally don't like are part of what D&D is and should be. I find most Gygaxian-style ultra-logistical dungeon-heisting to be painfully, painfully boring, the equivalent of filling out one's taxes in triplicate in order to listen to one's favorite song...each and every time you want to listen to that song. Doesn't mean that style should be given short shrift; it means that the rules for it need to be opt in, rather than opt out. As much as possible, opt-in rules for various playstyles should be supported, hence my advocacy for robust, well-made, accessible "novice level" rules despite the fact that I have negative desire to ever play or use such rules. Folks who think that sort of thing is a pointless waste of time are not, in my not-so-humble opinion, productive voices within the D&D community.
To be fair, all of this reads as, "people I personally don't want to play D&D with" rather than, "people who shouldn't play D&D".
 

Mistwell

Crusty Old Meatwad (he/him)
That's all true. You can totally play D&D without any combat. Just like you can totally run a mass battle game with D&D rules or a science fiction game with D&D rules.

There are just other RPGs that would be VASTLY VASTLY better suited to such a campaign than D&D.

This is just further shift from the topic I was replying to. First it was "if you don't like your PC dying" and then it was "any combat at all" and now it's "can you find a different game which does no combat at all better." The last two have little to nothing to do with what I was responding to.
 


Lanefan

Victoria Rules
Who shouldn't play D&D?

People who need to be the absolute best. I don't mean people who like optimizing (in part because yours truly likes a little optimization himself), I mean people who specifically need whatever it is they're playing to be better than what everyone else is playing. The people who need to feel like they're "winning" even in a cooperative game. They're a plague on both game design and at-the-table play.
To an extent, I'm fine with these players. To me it's just like being on a sports team - sure, winning with the team comes first yet at the same time there's nothing wrong with wanting to be the star player on that team.

One interesting thing I've noticed over time is that sometimes those players - while a nuisance as players - can in fact make very good DMs.
People who have no interest in actually interacting with others.
Agreed.
"one player and one DM" is a valid approach to D&D, albeit a difficult and often poorly-fitting one
During lockdown I ran with just one player and it worked great! It's different, to be sure, but from experience I can say it's not as "poorly-fitting" as you might expect. One unexpected side effect was that splitting the party no longer became a concern as we didn't have to worry about players having to sit out. :)
People who refuse to understand that meaningful conflict is the soul of drama, that meaningful limitations breed creativity, that meaningful flaws create interesting characters, that meaningful challenges leave lasting memories, that meaningful choices are essential to investment, etc., etc. There's an awful lot of advice out there that leaves out that repeated word: meaningful. It is outright false to say that all conflict necessarily leads to good drama; there's an absolute crapload of bad drama built on crappy foundations and uninteresting conflicts (the eight dreaded words: "I don't care what happens to these people.")
While we could argue all day long about where the line between meaningful and meaningless falls, in general this is sound. The only risk I can see is that if one overdoes the meaningful piece then even the meaningful stuff can become ho-hum; kind of along the lines of if everything is special, nothing is.

And yes, limitations are the breeding ground of creativity.
This one's gonna be controversial, but I strongly believe it nonetheless. People who make an argument based on the Stormwind fallacy (that optimization prevents roleplay; that roleplay prevents optimization; or that "bad" as in badly-built characters are necessarily richer or better or fuller or more interesting than "good"/well-built characters), the Oberoni fallacy (no game system ever has problems, because if it has a problem, the DM can always Rule Zero it away), Reductio ad videogame (insert game of preference here: WoW, Diablo, whatever, because obviously video games are the worst thing ever?), or DM/player arms race excuses ("it's fine if players can do stupid BS, because that stupid BS can then be used against them by the DM"). All of these arise from arguing in bad faith. There are ways to make every one of these arguments without bad faith: "when players excessively focus on optimization, it pulls them away from thinking of the game as a living, breathing world, and these rules give lots of incentive for optimization" is a perfectly valid argument that doesn't commit the Stormwind fallacy; "you call this a problem when it isn't actually a problem at all, you're wrong to call it so" or "whatever problems you see in this are very clearly rare edge cases, and rare edge cases are one of the most important applications of Rule Zero" are both perfectly valid alternatives to Oberoni. Etc.
I'm not sure someone's style of argument should dismiss them from playing.

Dismiss them from discussing, maybe, but that's a different thing. :)
And, finally: People who refuse to consider that gameplay styles they personally don't like are part of what D&D is and should be. I find most Gygaxian-style ultra-logistical dungeon-heisting to be painfully, painfully boring, the equivalent of filling out one's taxes in triplicate in order to listen to one's favorite song...each and every time you want to listen to that song. Doesn't mean that style should be given short shrift; it means that the rules for it need to be opt in, rather than opt out. As much as possible, opt-in rules for various playstyles should be supported, hence my advocacy for robust, well-made, accessible "novice level" rules despite the fact that I have negative desire to ever play or use such rules. Folks who think that sort of thing is a pointless waste of time are not, in my not-so-humble opinion, productive voices within the D&D community.
We might not agree on much but I think we're lined up on this: that the "modular" design put forward during 5e's playtest wasn't followed through was a major fail.
 


Umbran

Mod Squad
Staff member
Supporter
We might not agree on much but I think we're lined up on this: that the "modular" design put forward during 5e's playtest wasn't followed through was a major fail.

It is a failure to meet a goal stated early in development.

It is only hypothetically a failure otherwise. It is stuff on the cutting room floor that we didn't see. Was it good? In our imaginations, sure, but in reality, maybe cutting it made for a better result.
 

RoughCoronet0

Dragon Lover
Who shouldn't play D&D?! Why do these "people" need our permission all of a sudden?! 😉😆

The only people who shouldn't play are those who don't want to play. Everything else only matters in the context of what "certain people shouldn't play with certain other people". One just have to find a group that works for them, and there are a lot of people who play D&D, or so I've been told.
 


bloodtide

Legend
So...you openly admit to the fact that you are making up boogeymen, rather than actually talking about any existing game?

For goodness' sake, if you're going to make an argument like this, you could at least name one RPG that actually works that way.
I do often keep things general. If I need to narrow something down to a single game, I'll mention it by name.
What does that even mean?
I'm not sure there is an answer to that....It's a Matrix type thing. If you are hopelessly in the Matrix, then you willingly follow all the rules. If your not part of the Matrix things are different.

Not according to my copies of Moldvay Basic, or AD&D, or 4e D&D.
So your looking for a game rule that says you don't have to follow the game rules?
 

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