D&D General [rant]The conservatism of D&D fans is exhausting.

This comes across as either "whataboutism" or a simple failure to realize that humans aren't 100% consistent.

I, personally, have no use for blue cheese, and have been quoted as thinking that funk is great in music, but not in food. Except... I just had buffalo chicken fingers with blue cheese sauce for lunch. And I enjoyed it!

What are you gonna do? Sue me? Rat on me to the Cheese Police? Castigate me for a thousand pages of discussion on the internet? What?

The fact of the matter is that I have some general thoughts on blue cheese that are mostly true, but have some exceptions. Those exceptions DO NOT mean the generalization isn't true.

Moreover, my failure to state my exceptions initially does not mean that I'm lying, or that I'd secretly be okay at the Limburger County Roquefort Festival, but I cannot admit it, or something.
I don't mind inconsistency--when people aren't making demands or expecting something that everyone else must live with.

When inconsistency creeps into lines drawn in the sand, that's when I get frustrated.

It's not "whataboutism". It's "you cannot declare an absolute line in the sand that must never be violated....and then accept plenty of violations of it when you didn't feel that strongly about it."
 

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I don't mind inconsistency--when people aren't making demands or expecting something that everyone else must live with.

When inconsistency creeps into lines drawn in the sand, that's when I get frustrated.

It's not "whataboutism". It's "you cannot declare an absolute line in the sand that must never be violated....and then accept plenty of violations of it when you didn't feel that strongly about it."

When has anyone made demands about what other people should do? We're all just expressing preferences about what we want in a game. You do get pushback when you say "This apple is just like that orange", that's not the same thing.
 

When has anyone made demands about what other people should do? We're all just expressing preferences about what we want in a game. You do get pushback when you say "This apple is just like that orange", that's not the same thing.
...

Are you seriously not noticing the demand for game design that satisfies the simulationist desire? The utter rejection of anything that offends such sensibilities?
 

This misperception is why so many traditional DMs argue with you. What we do isn't even close to being one person telling a story, or forcing players to color between established lines. That's just not what we do.
Then why is absolute authority for GMs--meaning, absolute obedience from the players--so goddamn important?!

Absolute authority for X means absolute obedience from the people over whom X has that authority.
 

While its a bridge too far for me, you won't hear me say its not a consistent position. Though I'm not sure I think the proper term is "hold up to player scrutiny"; its more a case that the player must understand the genre enough to understand there are certain steps they don't take and that its going to be on look-and-feel grounds rather than formalized rules. I think there's obvious problems for people who can't or are unwilling to do that of course; its why I questioned many years ago whether certain kinds of immersionists could play high -convention genres without dissonance coming from either them or everyone else.
Agreed. As I've said before, superhero is the only genre where I feel mechanics to enforce genre are useful to me, because most players IME have a hard time playing a character with super-powers in a modern setting and not running it into the ground genre-wise.
 

I don't mind inconsistency--when people aren't making demands or expecting something that everyone else must live with.

When inconsistency creeps into lines drawn in the sand, that's when I get frustrated.

It's not "whataboutism". It's "you cannot declare an absolute line in the sand that must never be violated....and then accept plenty of violations of it when you didn't feel that strongly about it."
Sure you can...in your own subjective preferences, which we are all welcome to share with each other.
 

...

Are you seriously not noticing the demand for game design that satisfies the simulationist desire? The utter rejection of anything that offends such sensibilities?
Subjective preferences. You're welcome to have those too, and I'm welcome to disagree with them.

And there is definitely game design out there that satisfies my simulationist desire.
 

That would be a fertile area of investigation; we could do more of that, and less of trying to find the angle that allows us to declare it's all made up and doesn't matter.

Personally, I think there's two things going on. First, reactive checks are generally treated differently than proactive action declarations. I think they lead to an inversion of the normal process. Instead of declaration an action, evaluating, and then narrating results, the binary result is assumed, evaluation occurs, and then a small filler action is declared to justify the outcome.

I think the whole thing could be clarified by moving perception (and possibly knowledge type skills) to be defenses. That, and/or responsibility could be clarified around who actually narrates an appropriate interstitial action. You can certainly imagine the player rolling a 2 and saying "Darkelf is distracted by the bookshelf and not paying attention" without prompting.

The second thing going on is a matter of scale; the rune example reaches way further back in time and outside of the character. You're not filling in an interstitial action within the last minute or so, you're filling in an action taken by someone else an indeterminate amount of time in the past, whoever carved the runes in the first place.
I don't understand why scale and responsibility matter when the (claimed) issue is one of principle. If it is principle that is actually the problem, then these things should not happen. If principle is not actually the issue, then several things people have taken umbrage with in this very thread should not have been--great example being how badly people reacted to the "you failed on a Climb check, so you struggled and stumbled and took way too long to climb to the top, finding your friend you were trying to save already dead". That was so widely opposed we spent at least a hundred posts arguing about whether it was in the least acceptable.

What are we to make of this?
 

Subjective preferences. You're welcome to have those too, and I'm welcome to disagree with them.

And there is definitely game design out there that satisfies my simulationist desire.

It’s a bit ironic for me in that I normally wouldn’t call myself a simulationist because I don’t prefer games with really granular simulation systems. But compared to narrativist games I like alot more simulation than i find in them.
 

It’s a bit ironic for me in that I normally wouldn’t call myself a simulationist because I don’t prefer games with really granular simulation systems. But compared to narrativist games I like alot more simulation than i find in them.
Yeah, kinda same for me.

It is frustrating how these discussions go:
"I think I'd prefer a tad more simulationism than a game X offers"
"How curious you play game Y then, which is not perfectly simulationistic in all aspects. You hypocrite!"


It might be the Edwardsian fallacy of incoherence that causes this, that game preferences are all or nothing, whilst in reality they rarely are.
I think was an idea that has been very harmful to the discourse.
 

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