D&D (2024) Are single class martials still going to be viable in 2024?

[ECMO3]

You need to be missed once every 2 turns to stay ahead. Seems like a reasonable assumption.

Without a shield or a feat? I'm not sure about that.

Also you need to do that AND have those misses come on separate rounds AND not have more than 8 turns of combat total between short rests (where you would run out of dice).

And yea. You could use a die on precision stike too. That would also count as an extra hit.

Yes and with this in addition to the above I can buy that the battlemaster will be ahead more than she won't be ahead.

 

[Clint_L]

Also barbarian and rogue in particular still barely scale to tier 3. Which is still a huge step up for the barbarian from barely scaling past level 5 on the base class.

Treantmonk uses the new berserker barbarian as their DPR benchmark for 2024, right through to level 20.

 

[fluffybunbunkittens]

The only class I think begs to dip for 1 level, is MonkX into Rogue1 (2 x expertise, Nick mastery, sneak attack) - they get a huge damage boost out of it if they want to go with a dual-blade ninja aesthetic (that also gives them a ranged option with a dagger, whose d4 damage die gets replaced by unarmed dice anyway). It gets you a big skill boost and damage both, and slides into a build smoothly at any point.

Now, Wizards tried to make Warlock dips even more appealing in 2024, but the continuing main attraction, a proper Eldritch Blaster requires 2 levels, which delays your progress elsewhere (such as feat gain!) by a lot. A single-level dip for Charisma-fighting + short rest spell slot might look appealing to Paladins, but... how many short rests are you really taking over a day? And why not just pick Magic Initiate: Shillelagh as your origin feat?

I'm glad there's multiple ways to fight without the physical stats! But that single stat focus sets other limits on you, main one being that combat feats still raise just str/dex. It's a valid extra build option, but I think it's more for people who are going to pick stuff that isn't the usual combat feats anyway - Chef / Fey-Touched / Inspiring Leader / Observant / Shadow-Touched / Telekinetic / Telepathic / Warcaster...

 

[Micah Sweet]

Looking at what we know of the new rules I think you are going to really be nerfed if you take a single class Paladin, Ranger, Monk or Fighter compared to what you can do with a dip.

On a Paladin I think you are going to always want 1 Warlock level.

On a Fighter you are going to want 1 Warlock level to let you attack with Charisma or 1 Monk level to make bonus action unarmed strikes.

On a Monk you are going to want a level of Fighter or Ranger for Nick.

On a Ranger you are going to want 1 Monk level for bonus action unarmed strikes.

Multiclassing has always provided an edge, but now the boons you get with a one level dip make the difference between a dipped and non-dipped character pretty big. I don't see single class martials being competitive with these dips at most levels.

Can you please define for me what "viable" means from your perspective?

 

[Clint_L]

The only class I think begs to dip for 1 level, is MonkX into Rogue1 (2 x expertise, Nick mastery, sneak attack) - they get a huge damage boost out of it if they want to go with a dual-blade ninja aesthetic (that also gives them a ranged option with a dagger, whose d4 damage die gets replaced by unarmed dice anyway). It gets you a big skill boost and damage both, and slides into a build smoothly at any point.

There's some temptation there, for sure, but the monk's new capstone is so good that if there is a chance of the character getting to level 20, it's pretty hard to give up having a minimum of 24/24 in your primary stats, and the 24 AC (naked) to go with it.

 

[ECMO3]

Can you please define for me what "viable" means from your perspective?

I mean comparable to other non-multiclassed martials.

In 2014 martials were way behind casters, but martials were not way behind mutliclassed builds that were primarily martials. Now they are closer, but still behind casters, but also further behind martial multiclass builds at what I would say are most of the levels played.

Central to this discussion is the huge increase you can get at level 2 which was not there before.

Perhaps viable is not the right word to use.

 

[ECMO3]

There's some temptation there, for sure, but the monk's new capstone is so good that if there is a chance of the character getting to level 20, it's pretty hard to give up having a minimum of 24/24 in your primary stats, and the 24 AC (naked) to go with it.

I have played a bunch of PCs level 1 to level 20 in the last 2 years. I think 8 PCs total and I am playing a 15th and 16th level character in right now, that will be level 20 before winter probably.

The level 20 capstone is a big deal, but it is one level, out of 20 you will play. Unless the campaign will go on for longer with you playing level 20 PCs for several adventures it is just not worth it. You get that capstone for 1 level which is probably 1-2 sessions. You get the boons from multiclassing for potentially 18 levels ...... or more realistically, typically something around 10-15 levels.

If I am playing a level 20 one shot then the capstone matters a lot. If I am playing a 1-20 campaign the capstone matters very little.

TBH, although I have played A LOT of high level D&D in the last 2 years, I have never played a single class character above level 9.

 

[mellored]

also further behind martial multiclass builds at what I would say are most of the levels played.

I'm not convinced.

2: multiclass is better
3: battlemaster is slightly better
4: Polearm Master is better (Reaction attacks)
5: multi attack is much better
6: not sure about GWM, depends on the number of kills you get.
7: multiclass is better
8: multiclass is better
9: Indomitable and master of Armaments is better
10: multiclass is better
11: third attack is much better.

So multiclass has 4-5 out of 10 levels.

Which is really close, but straight class is still ahead.

 

[ECMO3]

I'm not convinced.

2: multiclass is better
3: battlemaster is slightly better
4: Polearm Master is better (Reaction attacks)
5: multi attack is much better
6: not sure about GWM, depends on the number of kills you get.
7: multiclass is better
8: multiclass is better
9: Indomitable and master of Armaments is better
10: multiclass is better
11: third attack is much better.

So multiclass has 4-5 out of 10 levels.

Which is really close, but straight class is still ahead.

I would disagree. Assuming battlemaster and strength/heavy weapon build (which is far from optimal in 2024).

Level 6: I think you are behind at level 6 because when you consider batttlemaster maneuvers; GWM+martial arts with reposit beats PAM+GWM. The same point you made at level 3 (which I generally agreed with) comes back and bites you here at level 6 - your reaction attacks are not as big a deal because I can make them anyway if I am missed and I do more damage on both my action and my bonus action.

Level 7: You are well behind at level 7 as the multiclass has both feats now and is doing more damage.

Level 8: At level 8 you are still behind because you are doing less damage.

Level 9 you have indomitable vs not having indomitable and doing more damage. I think this is situationally better, but could go either way.

So 6-7 out of 10 levels you are behind IMO. Keep in mind also this is a build specifically optimized to NOT multiclass. If we actually optmize with Vex-Nick multiclass build outruns it by a mile.

 

[mellored]

Level 6: I think you are behind at level 6 because when you consider batttlemaster maneuvers; GWM+martial arts beats PAM+GWM. The same point you made at level 3 comes back and bites you here at level 6 - your reaction attacks are not as big a deal because I can make them anyway if I am missed and I do more damage on the bonus action attacks.

You can use your dice for other things. Like Precision.

Level 7: You are well behind at level 7 as the multiclass has both feats now and is doing more damage.

You're talking 1d6 vs 1d4.

Shall I claim that straight class wins because they have more hit points?

Level 8: At level 8 you are still behind because you are doing less damage.

Damage isn't the only thing.

Level 9 you have indomitable vs not having indomitable and doing more damage. I think this is situationally better.

Stunned fighters deal no damage.

Keep in mind this is a build specifically optimized to NOT multiclass.

It's the same build as the multiclass.