D&D (2024) Are single class martials still going to be viable in 2024?

[Shardstone]

Going back to basics single classed martials are much stronger than in 2014. Also levels 3-5 are all very important (3=subclass, 4 = first feat and prime stat for a normal character up from 17 to 18, 5 = second attack). The case for multiclassing before 5 is hard.

After 5 things are very different. 8 is nowhere near as important as 5 with standard array or point buy (you're making a second choice that wasn't good enough last time and your prime stat is now probably even) and most subclass second subclass features are nowhere near as good as the first. Also barbarian and rogue in particular still barely scale to tier 3. Which is still a huge step up for the barbarian from barely scaling past level 5 on the base class.

Your point on the barbarian is hilarious but also tragic. LIke man, the old Barbarian really did stop existing at 6th level.

 

[Paul Farquhar]

DnD4e and PF2e do not have this caster superiority problem.

And neither feel like D&D (deliberately so for PF2).

 

[mellored]

DnD4e and PF2e do not have this caster superiority problem.

PF2 still has it at higher levels.

Combat is balanced pretty well.

And while they do allow fantastic skills, like Intimidating people into having heart attacks, the wizard actually has more skills (+int) than the fighter. So a little lose there.

But when it comes to utility, casters have all their low level slots to spend, plus they can afford tons of scrolls. It isn't even close.

 

[deadman1204]

I dont see how they can ever be the best. The entire system of 5th ed is designed around multiclassing.
Add to this the development is 90% focused on tier 1, and tier 3-4 are utterly ignored. You get amazing abilities front loaded, then go many later levels without getting anything more than 1 extra use per day of a single ability, or a useless ribbon.

To make a single class martial viable, the game would need to develop the game adequately in tiers 3-4, but they have zero intention of ever doing so. ALL energy is spent on trying to get new people who cant bother to read the books into the game. Keep it super simple for those who don't buy the books while not adding to the higher levels for the players who are more likely TO buy the books.

 

[ECMO3]

I've been crunching numbers this evening and it seems pretty dang optimal for melee damage in 2024.

MA, GWM, Graze (7+4+3)+(7+4+3)+(3.5+4) = 35.5*.6 + .4*4*2 = 24.5
I'd estimate the GWM bonus attack procs about 35% of the time for +2.275 DPR = 26.8
GWM, PAM, Graze (5.5+4+3)+(5.5+4+3)+(2.5+4+3) = 34.5*.6 + .4*4*3 = 25.5
I'd estimate the GWM bonus attack procs about 35% of the time for +1 DPR = 26.5

The Battlemaster manuevers will slightly favor the non-PAM build (+1.5 damage pre accuracy adjustment per maneuver divided by the number of rounds in the period, probably yields about a +.5 DPR increase). However, the reaction attack is the big variable and since the DPR is going to be so close it won't take a very high proc rate to push this over. Something like 2 reaction attacks per short rest from PAM is likely enough to put the PAM version in the lead ever so slightly.

I don't think it is close to optimal even on a single class build and the numbers above are not correct.

My understanding is you do not get a GWM damage bonus on either your bonus action attack or your reaction attack. What I have read of the GWM feat is that it only applies to the attacks that occur using the attack action. So the PAM bonus action on PAM-GWM is 2.5+4, not 2.5+4+3 and you also do not get GWM on your reaction attack or your hew attack.

This is a big reason GWM-PAM is outclassed in general by other styles IMO, not just in this example. IF you got GWM with all your attacks it would be way different.

RAW I think the highest damage in a single class before level 11 RAW is going to involve a lot of weapon switching, dropping and drawing different weapons with the Dual wielding feat. I think it is going to be something like: Attack with Greataxe-Cleave-Drop great axe-draw scimitar-draw and attack with shortsword (vex), Nick with scimitar (nick)- drop both weapons-Dual Wielding bonus action draw and attack with a Versatile Longsword or Warhammer.

This crazyness aside, I think just basic light weapons with nick and the dual wielder feat is going to beat GWM-PAM by quite a bit.

What feat are you choosing? I'm presuming +2 Str to max out your str at 20?

Then use the exact same feats GWM-PAM. You are just only using the PAM for the reaction since martial arts does more damage than the PAM bonus action attack.

Switching from a 2d6 to a d10 weapon drops damage by 3DPR drop in damage from level 6 to level 7 to get the reaction attack, it also drops damage on your Hew attack when you get it.

Maybe that is worth it, maybe not but this makes it an easy comparison - same weapon, same strength, same opportunities and number of attacks and slightly more damage

Should be back to virtually the same situation as at level 6 as the PAM gets a feat like sentinel, which in addition to putting str at 20 also has an amazing tactical effect and combo with PAM, as well as providing a few more reaction attacks that the MA version does not get.

They both can get Sentinel, and the multiclass is still doing more damage with their bonus action.

What feat are you taking here to increase your damage, i'm not really seeing any offensive ones that really benefit your character at this point? Match sentinel feat maybe so you can at least assume more equal reaction attacks? I really don't know what else you might choose?

What I used in the earlier post was GWM only with a better weapon meaning more damage. I think in general PAM-GWM with a d10 weapon is going to be substantially worse than GWM with a 2d6 weapon and martial arts and I can show clearly that the latter is doing more damage on your turn (over 4 more DPR) with or without sentinel.

But whether it is outright better relies heavily on the value and frequency of your PAM reaction attacks as compared to that extra damage you do on your turn and the frequency of Sentinel attacks. More Sentinel attacks or fewer reactions overall would favor not using a pole arm (even if with the feat)

 

[FrogReaver]

I don't think it is optimal even on a single class build.

My unerstanding is you do not get a GWM bonus on either your bonus action attack or your reaciton attack. What I have read of the GWM feat is that it only applies to the attacks that occur using the attack action. So the bonus action on PAM-GWM is 2.5+4, not 2.5+4+3 and you also do not get GWM on your reaction attack.

Proof, because it doesn’t make much sense that it would not add to the bonus action it grants itself. But I’m open to being proven wrong.

This is a big reason GWM-PAM is outclassed in general by other styles IMO, not just in this example. IF you got GWM with all your attacks it would be way different.

I think you do, so let’s focus on this point primarily. I don’t know that the single instance of 3 damage from it on the bonus action makes or breaks anything though.

RAW I think the highest damage in a single class before level 11 RAW is going to involve a lot of weapon switching, dropping and drawing different weapons with the Dual wielding feat. I think it is going to be something like: Attack with Greataxe-Cleave-Drop great axe-draw scimitar-draw and attack with shortsword (vex), Nick with scimitar (nick)- drop scimitar-Dual Wielding bonus action draw and attack with a Versatile Longsword or Warhammer

IF you don't want to do that kind of weapon switching I think a straight light weapon build with both nick and dual wielding is going to do the most damage without mutliclassing.

That can be answered after GWM question is resolved.

In this example the exact same feats GWM-PAM. You are just only using the PAM for the reaction since your martial arts does more damage than the PAM bonus action attack.

You cannot use PAM reaction attack with a great sword though.

You are taking a drop in damage from level 6 to level 7 to get the reaction attack. This makes it an easy comparison - same weapon, same strength, same opportunities to attack, slightly more damage.

So you are dropping the great sword for a glaive??

They both can get Sentinel, and the multiclass is still doing more damage with their bonus action.

Way more??? The PAM bonus attack does 1 less damage than martial arts bonus attack.

To make the comparison easy I am using the exact same feats.

You can’t.

The numbers above are not accurate.

Is the only dispute the GWM applying to the bonus attack?

 

[WanderingMystic]

Proof, because it doesn’t make much sense that it would not add to the bonus action it grants itself. But I’m open to being proven wrong.

I think you do, so let’s focus on this point primarily. I don’t know that the single instance of 3 damage from it on the bonus action makes or breaks anything though.

That can be answered after GWM question is resolved.

You cannot use PAM reaction attack with a great sword though.

So you are dropping the great sword for a glaive??

Way more??? The PAM bonus attack does 1 less damage than martial arts bonus attack.

You can’t.

Is the only dispute the GWM applying to the bonus attack?

The wording of GWM is "to attacks you make with the attack action", they have added that to a few things so they don't work with weapon spells like true strike, they don't work on bonus action and they don't work on reactions.

 

[FrogReaver]

The wording of GWM is "to attacks you make with the attack action", they have added that to a few things so they don't work with weapon spells like true strike, they don't work on bonus action and they don't work on reactions.

Well then… Grrr @reddit

 

[WanderingMystic]

Well then… Grrr @reddit

You still can use a bonus action to make an attack when you kill an opponent or when you roll a 20, you also get a +1 to STR I believe so it is a very solid feat but best on a fighter than other martial classes due to the extra attacks.

 

[FrogReaver]

You still can use a bonus action to make an attack when you kill an opponent or when you roll a 20, you also get a +1 to STR I believe so it is a very solid feat but best on a fighter than other martial classes due to the extra attacks.

Right. Complaint isn’t so much how the feat works, just how my source left out important detail.

Though it’s slightly annoying having to remember different damage attacks.