D&D (2024) D&D 2024 Rules Oddities (Kibbles’ Collected Complaints)

[ECMO3]

I am not even sure about the intentional part, and I disagree with it being a fix.

If you cannot see me from the position you are in, then I do not even need to be invisible for you to not see me, and See Invisible will not detect me either, whether I actually am invisible or not. It would be laughable if it would detect me because I in addition am invisible but not do so if I am just standing there in the exact same spot

So we walk up to the castle and from the bushes I cast see invisible, now tell me the location of all the guards inside the castle and which room the princess is in.

 

[ECMO3]

Yeah it doesn't do that. The new See Invisibility just lets you see invisible (and hidden) creatures as if they were visible.

If you wouldn't see them if they were visible then See Invisibility doesn't help you

This is a lot of word salad.

If they are behind a wall or a door or something they are not "visible" to you. See invisible lets you see them as if they are visible.

 

[ECMO3]

Then you have 3/4 cover and she sees you.

The hide action, or invisibility spell, will do nothing except give advantage on Initiative.

Everything else is the same.

If the spells are the same you will not be able to target creatures you can't see with most spells, and that is a big deal.

 

[ECMO3]

To be fair.. Nobody discussed it while seeing those early packets with standardized progression because wotc never even talked about it as a deliberate thing rather than coincidence before doing so while explaining that they were going to drop it & never once asked survey questions about standardized progression at any point before or after dropping it

I mentioned it in my feedback multiple times, both on the initial "standardized" subclasses and on the later subclass changes where they moved Sorc, Cleric, Wizard and Warlock stuff to level 3.

I really like the idea of Sorcerer and Cleric subclasses at 1st level.

 

[ECMO3]

Magic is getting less powerful. The most powerful spells (force cage, spiritual weapon, simulacrum) where nerfed.

I would disagree here. Spiritual Weapon was not a particularly powerful spell

While Forcecage has a slight nerf and Simulacrum needed and got some major nerfs, overall magic is as strong as ever and some of the new things and new spells go the other direction.

Is magic less powerful when Forcecage gets a minor nerf but on the other hand you have the 500 damage conjure/Scorching Ray option, mirror images with a 20 AC (and no concentration) and multiple spells can bypass legendary resistance and impose extremely debilitating effects?

 

[ECMO3]

Nothing is perfect and while this particular issue should have been worded better, I'm just not overly concerned. If you want to look at truly horrendous rules look at any of the versions Gygax wrote.

The versions Gygax wrote relied far more on DM interpretation and less on objective wording and math.

 

[AdmundfortGeographer]

Since the wording of Shield Guardians says “whenever the emanation enters a creature’s space…”, couldn’t that mean the spell could be ripe for the caster doing something like the Hokey Pokey, stepping forward so the emanation enters the space, stepping back, then stepping forward again making the emanation enter the space again?

 

[ECMO3]

So.... was it bad design, sloppy and ill-thought out? Or intentional design. Somethings appear to be errors, those are unfortuanate, but it gets increasingly difficult to untangle the lingering disdain for WoTC, disagreements in play style, honest mistakes that stem from expectations, and mistakes that are actually problems.

Yes it is bad design because it ties the Ranger to a specific niche/archetype that uses this spell and it also ties a Ranger to using weapons extensively.

Ranger was my favorite class in the 2014 rules and the vast majority of time at level 7+ I was not using weapon attacks at all. If I wanted Paladin level damage I would play a Paladin or another high damage martial and it was (and still is) pathetically easy to get Hunters Mark on a Paladin.

If they had given a choice of 1st level spells to get free castings of with buffs to each it would be a lot better. I can still probably do this with a Ranger, but then there are class features I have very little use for.

 

[ECMO3]

2014 Bard with a horse could do 500, with +12+1d6 to the grapple check.
And the druid can be a horse.

I don't believe a Bard can give inspiration to himself.

And the damage was halved because the movement was halved. So yes the damage could be more reliable on an athletics check, but it was also lower and required specific builds to leverage.

I mean the example you give - A Bard doing it, is not casting a spell (which is a big opportunity cost) and has to have his mount standing right next to him (since movement with the grappled creature is takes twice as much and mounting costs movement) and takes AOOs. Also to have a +12 he needs a high strength, which is a major compromise on most Bard builds to start with.

This is a far cry from a Martial like a Monk doing it all in one turn with almost arbitrary positioning from nearly anywhere in a melee scrum.

 

[Daztur]

I find it deeply amusing that people think the changes to Spirit Guardians is some kind of OP buff.

Spirit Guardians now does damage once when the emanation enters a creature's space and when they end their turn in it. That is it. This means a cleric can run into a group of enemies and deal 3d8 damage. And if the enemies do not flee, they take 3d8 at the end of their turn. IF they do flee, no extra damage.

Do you know how it USED to work? People would use Telekinetic or Eldritch blast with Grasp of Hadar. They would stop right before the enemy, then hit them with those abilities, pulling them into the spirit guardians for 3d8 damage, then at the start of the creature's turn, they would take another 3d8 damage. Then on the next turn or as a reaction the caster would find a way to push them out or flee, then pull them back in, and they would repeat the process. They could also get allies to do the same, pulling the enemy out, and pushing them in.

If anything, the exploit is WEAKER than it used to be, because now moving the enemy around in and out of the spell effect doesn't do anything. You have to move the spell effect, and depending on the exact wording, it might ONLY work if you move the emenation on your turn, dropping us from potentially 12d8 damage before the enemy can react to 3d8.

I'm more worried about Spiked Growth cheesegrater strategies than Spirit Guardians. WRT Spirit Guardians I was originally responding to someone who said that you should avoid exploits by just not playing with people who used exploits, when said exploit is "walking around a bit so that more people got hit by Spirit Guardians." If a game's mechanics can be exploited by walking around a bit then there's something wrong with those mechanics.

Comparing 5e and 5.5e spirit guardians. Unless I'm missing something in 5.5e mechanics the way to squeeze more damage out of them is to:

1. Move around a lot so that more critters get included in the AoE.
2. Flee critters who are next to you (or push them away) so you can repeat #1 next turn.

Similarly the 5e way to squeeze more damage out of SG was to:

1. Position yourself so that at least one (ideally a bunch) of critters are just outside the range of SG.
2. Knock said critter into the range of SG.
3. Then the caster has to flee or push the critters away (not just from AoO range but out of SG range).
4. Then people have to knock the critters back in.

With the 5e way that's a lot of pushing and pulling, a WHOLE LOT of pushing and pulling and some very exact positioning that is going to be hard to do with more than one critter.

Just like I doubt that I'll ever have to deal with weapon juggling as a 5.5e DM, I never had to deal with those kind of tactics as a 5e DM despite running games for years and how much pushing and pulling and precise positioning has to be done makes it seem like not a big problem for me if it did happen.

Meanwhile the much simpler way to squeeze more damage out of the 5.5e SG rules make it seem like the sort of thing I'd be more likely to see at an actual table in which the PCs are fighting a whole bunch of mooks and the cleric just lawn mows through them. Not really that big of a deal in most fights, but annoying some of the time.

Don't see anything wrong with the solution of nerfing SG a bit and making the damage only proc on the start of a critter's turn.