D&D (2024) Are single class martials still going to be viable in 2024?

[ECMO3]

Proof, because it doesn’t make much sense that it would not add to the bonus action it grants itself. But I’m open to being proven wrong.

Level 5 18 strength dual wielder feat, two weapon fighting style feat:

Action:
First attack Greataxe - 10.5
Cleave attack - 6.5
Second attack Shortsword (Vex) - 7.5
Nick attack Scimitar - 7.5

Bonus action:
Dual Wielder attack Versatile Longsword - 9.5

Total DPR including Cleave - 41.5, total single target damage 35.

If you want to select an Armor class I will put an AC adjusted value in there but any way you slice it, I think you are going to outrun GWM-PAM by quite a bit.

I have not actually researched it extensively, and thought through all the options but I believe that will be the top DPR at level 5.

I think you do, so let’s focus on this point primarily. I don’t know that the single instance of 3 damage from it on the bonus action makes or breaks anything though.

It makes it 3 less damage (at level 5-8) and makes it less damage than a martial arts attack AND it makes it 3 less damage on any reaction attacks, making it less valuable off turn. Here is a link to the the wording of the feat I am going by

Great Weapon Master » Feats - DnD 2024

Like I said if this is incorrect it changes the discussion quite a bit.

You cannot use PAM reaction attack with a great sword though.

I know but using a Pole Arm with GWM and PAM feats I can use martial arts and do more damage with an unarmed strike than I would do with the Pole Arm .... assuming my understanding of GWM is accurate.

So you are dropping the great sword for a glaive??

To make an equal comparison yes.

If I drop the greatsword for a Glaive I get everything the single class PAM-GWM fighter gets with better bonus action damage.

I don't think this is better overall on either build because of the drop in damage you take on your attack action, reaction attacks, Hew attacks and Sentinel attacks because you are using a lower damage weapon for all of these .... but if you think the extra PAM reaction attacks you are getting is going to make up for all that then using a Glaive would be better and giving the multiclass a Glaive is going to be better too.

Is the only dispute the GWM applying to the bonus attack?

That is the main one, based on the wording I have on the feat.

 

[Ruin Explorer]

A small multiclass dip has always been optimal. Martial classes in general are stronger now though.

Yeah nailed it in one.

The whole of 5E, if you're really looking at power, basically getting any kind of caster in there is going to enhance pretty much any martial (though not always vice-versa!), and certain combos are particularly good. This is because whilst 5E isn't LFQW, it is clearly slightly biased in favour of casters, specifically by the spell system, which allows casters to deal in absolutes (like a Sith!) whereas martials do not (like a Jedi!).

 

[Kinematics]

Time for a graph!

This is from my DPR spreadsheet. I've been rebuilding it for the new PHB. Lots of improvements, as this is like the third time through the process. In particular, I've made it so that I can set a multiclass dip of one level and cause things to be offset properly.

Anyway, this is a comparison of a few Champion builds. (Champion is the only fighter build I've got fully implemented.)

Setups are:

Starting Str: 16
Origin Feat: Alert
Fighting Style: GWF
Feats: GWM, Mage Slayer, ASI, Charger, Sentinel, Speedy
- +1 Str for first two, +2 Str from ASI (reach 20 Str at level 8)
Weapons: Greatsword (no magic)

Starting Str: 16
Origin Feat: Alert
Fighting Style: GWF
Feats: PAM, GWM, Mage Slayer, Charger, Speedy, Other
- +1 Str for first four (reach 20 Str at level 12)
Weapons: Glaive (no magic)

Starting Dex: 16
Origin Feat: Alert
Fighting Style: TWF
Feats: Charger, Mage Slayer, ASI, Sentinel, Athlete, Speedy
- +1 Dex for first two, +2 Dex from ASI (reach 20 Dex at level 8)
Weapons: Shortsword, Scimitar (no magic) (Can legitimately use Martial Arts offhand attack)

Starting Str: 16
Origin Feat: Alert
Fighting Style: GWF
Feats: GWM, Mage Slayer, ASI, Charger, Sentinel, Speedy
- +1 Str for first two, +2 Str from ASI (reach 20 Str at level 8)
Weapons: Greatsword (no magic) (Can only use offhand Martial Arts attack through juggling shenanigans)

PAM reaction attack frequency was set at a conservative 20%. Action Surge was set at 15% (about 1 round every two 3 or 4-round fights).

So if you allow weapon juggling, the monk dip ends up right on par with the other 2H weapon options, largely ending up right between the other two. If you go strictly by what's legitimate, and only use what are considered monk weapons to trigger the offhand attack, it's much weaker.

Part of that is that there's almost no improvement past level 12, and part is that there's not really very good damage feats for two-weapon fighting. Tavern Brawler has almost no value when all you're doing is a single offhand unarmed strike. Grappler requires a free hand, and can't be used on a bonus action unarmed strike anyway.

Anyway, the monk dip is ahead for a couple levels, but by character level 4-5 the other 2H weapons catch up, and the question of whether they're "viable" is clear.

Caveats: Feat choices were a little bit arbitrary, but mostly focused on getting important stuff done up front, and trying to get the main stat to 20 by level 8 (except for PAM, where I wanted Mage Slayer in place earlier rather than later).

Lots of stuff is factored in, including Vex weapons and Studied Attacks, and an actual formula for Savage Attacker. If you want to mess with it yourself, I've uploaded it here. If you have questions about the spreadsheet, you can PM me.

Addendum: I'm almost certainly going to find bugs now that I posted this publicly. Expect edits.

Edits:
1 - Fix target AC on dips
2 - Fix proficiency bonus on dips

 

[fluffybunbunkittens]

Pointbuy/array Fighters I do think now find it really tempting to stay single, just because that lv6 feat into lv8 feat lets you hit that 20 main stat at a good point for any campaign (and if the campaign does continue, then you're close enough to lv11 and 3rd attack, and then you're just one level away from another feat).

Overall, though, there is still a huge dip in martial class features after lv5. Ranger gets more movement and Barb gets a better initiative, but that's just nice to have, not omg I must have it. Rogues were always multiclass-friendly (because they have such a linear progression for their sneak attack, you get more from any dip), so for them I think it boils down to whether they want Reliable Talent to become their big thing or not.

 

[ECMO3]

Thanks for posting this.

Looking at your spreadsheet, I don't think you are calculating the PAM damage correctly once GWM comes online. I am pretty confident that both the PAM attack and the reaction attack are higher than they should be.

You also are not accounting for Hew bonus action attacks or Sentinel reaction attacks, both of which will drive the damage on the GWM users higher in comparison to the PAM users. I agree that 20% for PAM is conservative, but 20% for Hew is conservative too and there should be some smaller number for Sentinel.

Also the new rules allow "weapon juggling shenanigans", so this is RAW now.

Of note when I started this thread I did not realize that you could get 4 attacks on a straight class every round at level 5 with Dual Wielder. That makes a Monk dip much less attractive. I would like to see how that looks (Champion-TWF-dual wielding with Shortsword, Scimitar and 1d10 versatile Battleaxe.

You should be able to get 2 shortsword attacks (Vex), 1 scimitar attack (nick), and then a 1d10 battleaxe attack (Topple) every round. It will change round-by-round which of those 4 happen on the attack action and which happen on the bonus action, but I think you can do all 4 of these every round RAW.

 

[Sorcerers Apprentice]

Does 5.5 require a free hand for unarmed attacks? At least in 5e you can kick or headbutt.

 

[Kinematics]

You also are not accounting for Hew bonus action attacks or Sentinel reaction attacks, both of which will drive the damage on the GWM users higher in comparison to the PAM users. I agree that 20% for PAM is conservative, but 20% for Hew is conservative too and there should be some smaller number for Sentinel.

Not sure what Hew is? Oh wait, that's the bonus attack from GWM. Yeah, I don't have that figured in yet.

As for Sentinel, I actually just added that a short bit ago. Hadn't noted it in the above post yet. I'm currently defaulting it to the same 20% as the PAM reaction. It's a small bit of extra damage, though very nice for rogues.

Does 5.5 require a free hand for unarmed attacks? At least in 5e you can kick or headbutt.

For the monk's Martial Arts, no. You are allowed to make the bonus action unarmed attack if you're using monk weapons, so it's entirely reasonable to do so while wielding a pair of shortswords, or two-handing a quarterstaff.

 

[ECMO3]

Does 5.5 require a free hand for unarmed attacks? At least in 5e you can kick or headbutt.

Not AFAIK

 

[ECMO3]

For the monk's Martial Arts, now. You are allowed to make the bonus action unarmed attack if you're using monk weapons, so it's entirely reasonable to do so while wielding a pair of shortswords, or two-handing a quarterstaff.

On the new rules, from what I read, it is if you are holding only Monk weapons, which is no big deal as you can draw or stow a weapon with every attack you make with the attack action.

 

[Ashrym]

I'm not sure I agree with the premise being based on damage, or how we're defining "viable" here. I'm getting the impression that the most damage is what's important and everything less than is being othered as not "viable". I don't think "viable" starts at the top and our baseline is off.

If I make a typical human strength based fighter in armor with a long sword and shield then I would think typical equates better to viable so long as the character has decent options to contribute.

If I were to take that with an entertainer background, for example, I can add +2 to strength and +1 to charisma going with the musician origin feat and the use the human bonus feat for the healer origin feat.

Starting ability scores of Str 17, Dex 10, Con 14, Int 8, Wis 12, Cha 14 based on standard array. Fighters have enough starting gold for chainmail, shield, and a long sword plus other items (like that healer's kit). They would start with 18 AC and extra protection from the sap weapon expertise provides. Skill proficiencies aren't so great from the background (perform, acrobatics), but I can add medicine (human bonus) and class options (history, intimidation) for more less than typical skills. ;-)

Dueling fighting style provides a bit better damage for those concerned. ;-)

I would call this viable. Decent AC and attack stat, additional healing options and handing out inspiration. I could get more damage or defense. I could give better skill synergy. But I don't think the highest number is what determines that viability.

The build would be a style of combat medic with a good bedside manner. I could have fun with it.

What I don't foresee is a desire to multiclass. 2nd level fighter gives action surge (which I want because it builds towards nova capability) and tactical mind (because it can add a bonus to actions outside of combat, which I want).

3rd level fighter gives the subclass. I don't want to delay that. In this case I'll stick with champion. Improved critical can add damage but remarkable athlete now gives advantage on initiative and strength checks, which I want.

4th level is the feat. Heavy armor mastery increases str to 18 and grants damage reduction. It's also an additional use of second wind. 5th level is the extra attack. 6th level is another feat or ASI. 7th level on this build would add another fighting style. 8th is another feat or ASI. 9th is indomitable and tactical master. 10th is heroic inspiration and another use of second wind. 11th is another extra attack...

Fighters get something at every level. Every level multi-classed delays everything farther down the list. I would rather get to those later abilities faster. 2 action surges, 4 second winds, and 3 indomitable wills is pretty decent on a build that also reduces a lot of damage by 6 points (at 17th level and above with HAM, which is now based on proficiency bonus) and heals 10 hp per round while bloodied (18th level champion survivor trait with 20 con by 14th level).

Giving up the capstone for a fighter (or monk or barbarian) seems like a poor choice but I get that it's often like the carrot that's never reached. Delaying other abilities is also an issue, however, and I don't think damage is everything. ;-)