D&D (2024) Heroes of the Borderlands

[MonsterEnvy]

To remind people what the caves of chaos groups actually involved.

The Shrine of Evil Chaos: A group of human cultists with a bunch of undead and some powerful monsters under their command who are the dominant force in the Caves.
Kobolds: on their own
Orc Gang 1: allies to fellow orc tribe
Orc Gang 2: allies to fellow orc tribe, loosely allied to gnolls.
Goblins: subservient to the hobgoblins
Ogre Mercenary: Normally does jobs for the goblins, but for works for anyone.
Shunned Cavern: contains an owlbear and other dangerous monsters the other creatures avoid.
Hobgoblins: more or less the bosses of the normal goblins.
Bugbears: tend to prey on the other tribes to get tribute for the minotaur.
Minotaur: does jobs for the Bugbears for tributes.
Gnolls: loose alliance with orcs.

 

[Scribe]

But there's a difference between setting the stage, deciding what motivates the various NPC and factions along with what steps are likely and having an outline of a story. In the former, there are things and events for the party to interact with, but what happens (including the plans of non-player actors) may change based on what they players decide and do. With the latter people are funneled into certain storytelling points and certain events are predetermined.

A lot of modules take the storytelling approach and are fairly linear. There's nothing wrong with that, but the other approach is more of a sandbox that shifts and changes as a campaign progresses. Like with everything, it's on a scale from a railroad where the PCs have to march to the tune of the story beat drummer to dumping PCs into an environment with zero predetermined goals, threats or motivations.

Personally I don't get too caught up in terminology, but that's my understanding of the difference.

Right, the rail road, the choose your own adventure, the sandbox, I get all that (I think). I dont subscribe to all the fancy terms people love to throw around, its a game.

At the end of the day however regardless of how its done, a story is present within an RPG campaign, session, or whatever. It just is, its inherently there, it cannot be avoided.

At least thats how I see it.

 

[Micah Sweet]

Huh. I dont even know what to say about that. Its literally unavoidable, and is to me the underlying foundational point of the genre.

It is important, but to me playing a character in an imaginary world is the core an RPG. Story is a fun, unavoidable byproduct of that.

 

[Oofta]

Right, the rail road, the choose your own adventure, the sandbox, I get all that (I think). I dont subscribe to all the fancy terms people love to throw around, its a game.

At the end of the day however regardless of how its done, a story is present within an RPG campaign, session, or whatever. It just is, its inherently there, it cannot be avoided.

At least thats how I see it.

You can say that a story emerges from the cooperative play at the table, but it is not a story the DM preestablished. The DM is not "telling" a story, they're working with everyone else to create one. It's kind of like improv comedy where the comedian takes suggestions from the audience and riffs off them versus a comedian who has a predetermined act.

I don't really care what term is used, but I can understand the difference in approaches.

 

[Tales and Chronicles]

Right, the rail road, the choose your own adventure, the sandbox, I get all that (I think). I dont subscribe to all the fancy terms people love to throw around, its a game.

At the end of the day however regardless of how its done, a story is present within an RPG campaign, session, or whatever. It just is, its inherently there, it cannot be avoided.

At least thats how I see it.

What, you want to tell me that my Freekrigspiel story-emergent diagenic westmarch story telling game is really just a bunch of dudes making silly voices?!

 

[Remathilis]

I don't care if you have a pre-established story in mind or the story comes from emergent play, I care that the story doesn't devolve into "the session collapsed when new players couldn't decide what to do about goblin children".

 

[Oofta]

I don't care if you have a pre-established story in mind or the story comes from emergent play, I care that the story doesn't devolve into "the session collapsed when new players couldn't decide what to do about goblin children".

It's also fine if you say "We take the goblin children back to town." But what then? Are you going to care for them? What do you do with the preadolescent not quite warriors but still dangerous to commoner goblins? Why is there the assumption that there will be someone to take care of them?

Sometimes there are no good answers unless you play a character who doesn't care and is only out for gold and glory. I don't want to play that character, at least not on a regular basis. I definitely don't want to feel like I'm being forced to play that character.

 

[SteveC]

I played in a Caves of Chaos one-shot earlier this year. We all played characters of name level who had their first adventure in the Caves 25 years ago. We returned after hearing dark rumors and found that it had pretty much been trashed by adventuring parties over the years. There was a small village built up quite near the caves that essentially was a boom town for the adventurers who went into the caves.

When we got there, everything was trashed and people killed. We eventually found out that our group hadn't destroyed the cult 25 years ago, and there was a moment when "the stars were right," and they summoned a tentacled horror. We had to put it down and finish what we should have done in the past. The DM had everything made up with dwarven forge, and it was an amazing time.

When I think about what I'd like to see in the caves, I think it would be something like that.

 

[Scribe]

What, you want to tell me that my Freekrigspiel story-emergent diagenic westmarch story telling game is really just a bunch of dudes making silly voices?!

When you put it that way... thats exactly what I'm saying.

 

[Micah Sweet]

I don't care if you have a pre-established story in mind or the story comes from emergent play, I care that the story doesn't devolve into "the session collapsed when new players couldn't decide what to do about goblin children".

Since this specific issue is clearly a big problem for you and your group, you are reminded that perfectly welcome to ignore it at your table.