D&D (2024) Best fix for conjure minor elemental?

[bedir than]

On round 1 the caster uses quicken, dealing half damage. Round 2 combat is over.


or get ally with arcane eye/familiar to scout so you know when to pre-cast it.
someone with, alert + Haste to give you an extra attack -> Valor Bard -> Eldritch Blast for 12 shots.
And a monk to move you / enemies into position.

And you could probably kill eveyone on round 1.


Spell Sniper solves disadvantage. And will be quite useful for Eldritch Blast/ scorching ray anyways. If the enemy doesn't come close you'll even easier.

Though, using Foresight for your 9th level slot and CME at level 8 is likely more damage.

Since it's not a Warlock Spell, this build (not a character, because nothing about this contains a story) requires a 17th level Druid to either multi-class or use a non-core feat to grab Eldritch Blast, plus multi-class or use a non-core feat to get Quicken and to use a Feat to get Spell Sniper or it requires, to have a chance to win a single encounter, the use of the two highest level spell slots that the build only would ever get two of (plus the previous multiclass or feats).

The "problem" with CME is whiteboarding, not table play.

 

[mellored]

Since it's not a Warlock Spell, this build (not a character, because nothing about this contains a story) requires a 17th level Druid to either multi-class or use a non-core feat to grab Eldritch Blast, plus multi-class or use a non-core feat to get Quicken and to use a Feat to get Spell Sniper or it requires, to have a chance to win a single encounter, the use of the two highest level spell slots that the build only would ever get two of (plus the previous multiclass or feats).

The "problem" with CME is whiteboarding, not table play.

It's sorcerer 2/warlock1/Valor Bard.
Sorcerer gives you Con saves.
Warlock gives you pact of the blade.
Valor Bard let's you turn one attack into Eldritch Blast, and can pick up CME with magic secrets.
Spell Sniper boost Cha.

I haven't seen the beasts, but Moon Druid might have access to 3+ attacks.

Or just a straight wizard and use CME + Scorching Ray.

Or maybe True polymorph into a marilith?

 

[evilbob]

The "problem" with CME is whiteboarding, not table play.

This is why I tried to show a more reasonable example, as opposed to throwing around your entire stable of top-level spells with an oddly multi-classed character. I agree that compared to other top-tier evocation AOE spells vs. multiple targets, I think CME may not turn out too extreme in actual play. But where it completely blows away other spells is in single-target damage with spells that have a ton of attacks.

Edit: Dangit, I just cannot remember that this spell is self-only!! Somehow that just doesn't make sense in my brain for an AOE spell. Let me update:

Here's an 11th level wizard casting CME as a 6th level spell and then MM as a 5th level spell on a later round:
CME adds +6d8 per attack. MM at 5th does 7 attacks, for +42d8. Total 7d4+7+42d8 = 255.5 avg damage.

To put this in perspective, casting fireball as a 6th level spell is 11d6, or an average 49.5 damage (with a save for half). It's AOE, so ideally you get 2 or 3 targets - we'll say 3 targets for ~150 damage. That's still far less than the ~255 average damage from the 5th level magic missile (that cannot miss) empowered by CME, and which you can distribute damage much more evenly and effectively.

Granted, this combo takes two spells, and the wizard could just cast fireball twice (once at 5th and once at 6th), and if they both hit at least 3 targets that's ~285 damage instead of 255 - which makes CME seem pretty reasonable compared to large AOEs that hit many targets. But bit AOEs are tactically situational, requiring targets to scale, and still doing a low(er) max to each individual target. The CME+MM combo does 255 avg damage to anywhere from 1 to 8 targets, and needs no situational targeting to reach maximum potential. It's not so much that the potential damage upper total is comparable, it's that you can do all of it to a single target. Even 6th level disintegrate only hits for an average of 85 damage (10d6+40) against a single target (and that target can save for zero damage). I don't think anything else can combo for such a tremendous single-target hit at that level.

 

[bedir than]

It's sorcerer 2/warlock1/Valor Bard.

Solid note on the Bard. I forgot about their Secrets.
So the spell is broken at 20th level with a specifically engineered circumstances designed to break the spell.

 

[bedir than]

This is why I tried to show a more reasonable example, as opposed to throwing around your entire stable of top-level spells with an oddly multi-classed character. I agree that compared to other top-tier evocation AOE spells vs. multiple targets, I think CME may not turn out too extreme in actual play. But where it completely blows away other spells is in single-target damage with spells that have a ton of attacks.

Here's a bog-standard 11th level druid and wizard, each using their single 6th level spell slots in one round:

To put this in perspective, casting fireball as a 6th level spell is an average 49.5 damage (with a save for half). It's AOE, so ideally you get 2 or 3 targets - we'll say 3 targets for 150 damage. That's still far less than the 244 average damage from the 6th level magic missile (that cannot miss) empowered by CME, and which you can distribute damage much more evenly and effectively. And the level 1 MM comes out pretty amazing as well - with about 1/3rd of the damage for 5 spell levels lower!

Granted, this combo takes two 6th level spells, and the druid could cast cone of cold at 6th level (9d8 avg 49.5) + the wizard's 6th level fireball, and if they both hit at least 3 targets that's ~300 damage instead of 244 - which makes CME seem pretty reasonable compared to large AOEs that hit many targets. But the cone and fireball are tactically situational, requiring targets to scale, and still doing a low(er) max to each individual target. The CME+MM combo does 244 avg damage to anywhere from 1 to 8 targets, and needs no situational targeting to reach maximum potential. It's not so much that the potential damage upper total is comparable, it's that you can do all of it to a single target. Even 6th level disintegrate only hits for an average of 85 damage (10d6+40) against a single target (and that target can save for zero damage). I don't think anything else can combo for such a tremendous single-target hit at that level.

And scorching ray is the exact same thing. In that case: 6th level SR is 7x2d6 + 7x6d8 = 14d6 + 42d8 = 294 avg damage, with the biggest difference being that you have to roll attacks for each ray. That's pretty close to a 5.0 ancient white dragon's total health (CR 20, 333 HP), for example - for two 11th level casters in one round.

With your Magic Missile example you'd have to have three targets within 15' of you, as opposed to Fireball which has a useful range the possibility for a swarm and doesn't put you in melee immediately
I'm still not convinced the spell is broken

 

[FrogReaver]

An attack is defined on page 15 as ‘an attack with a weapon or unarmed strike’.

Note the different language with the hunters mark spell that refers to ‘attack roll’.

So +54 damage on an attack and only if the target is within 15 feet.

Bigbys hand also scales by 2d8 per extra level dealing 5d8 + 8d8 with a 9th level slot. Plus that leaves you to cast another spell each round as well.

If a 9th level wizard or Druid is making attacks as their action each round then I’m cool with that.

This is untrue.

The attack action is what is define on pg 15.

 

[mellored]

Solid note on the Bard. I forgot about their Secrets.
So the spell is broken at 20th level with a specifically engineered circumstances designed to break the spell.

I just like engineering.

It's broken if your a straight wizard who uses Scorching Ray, probably around level 15. Depending on where you draw the line between strong / overpowered / broken.

Does anyone have the wording on the new evoker dealing damage on a miss?

 

[FrogReaver]

I just do not see this being a huge problem in play. It takes a round to cast so this is 2 turns to pull off the 476 damage you describe above. On the first round it is half that much. It is a 9th level spell and you have to hang on to concentration and you need a level of Warlock to get it, meaning you are getting it 1 level later than you would otherwise.

You can do it with upcast Scorching Ray on a single class build, but then you get no damage at all on the first turn and are burning a 9th and 8th level spell.

I mean Meteor Swarm is 4 separate area of effects that average 140 at each 40 foot location, do half damage on a save and can target 4 areas a mile away and it does this on the first round.

Is it powerful? Yes. Is it OP? Not IMO.

It’s not especially hard to prebuff a spell, especially those lasting longer than a minute.

 

[evilbob]

With your Magic Missile example you'd have to have three targets within 15' of you, as opposed to Fireball which has a useful range the possibility for a swarm and doesn't put you in melee immediately
I'm still not convinced the spell is broken

I'm not really trying to convince you, and this isn't personal or anything. Of course there are situations where two fireballs are better - I showed that already - but they'll never do as much single-target damage, ever. Not even two disintegrates can do that much. Nothing can.

Also: CME has a duration of 10 mins, so it's not as hard to imagine the MM as a round-1 spell.

(Also, I completely messed up my example, so it's been extensively redone, sorry about that everyone!)

 

[evilbob]

It's broken if your a straight wizard who uses Scorching Ray, probably around level 15. Depending on where you draw the line between strong / overpowered / broken.

I've been using an 11th level wizard as my example, casting CME as 6th and MM as 5th. That does ~255 avg damage to a single target.

At level 15, any wizard could pre-cast CME as 8th and MM as 7th. That's +10d8 per attack, with 9 attacks. 9d4+9+90d8=526.5 damage that cannot be avoided or saved against. As a comparison, a 5.0 CR 24 ancient red dragon has 546 HP, and no defense against this combo.

Edit: just for completeness, at level 17, a wizard could pre-case CME at 9th and MM as 8th. That's +12d8 for 10 attacks. 10d4+10+120d8=695 avg damage. The 5.0 CR 30 god Tiamat has 615 HP and no defense against this combo.