D&D General They were all dead. The final arrow was an exclamation mark on everything that had led to this point.

If you get the reference, you have good taste.

TLDR: 5E isn’t exactly wrong on survivablity.



I've been running OSE IE Old school B/X with some modern flair for the last few months in a sort of sandbox style game. It's been super awesome. Most fun Ive had DMing in a long time.

Easy to run and play. It's D&D without all the chaff and bloat.... and yeah it's deadly. A bit less so with some house rules for more HP and better saves etc etc.

But stuff like instant death poison or a well rolled damage roll, it's still got claws.

A month ago I'd have said that's just the way it is. It's tough but fair (No save sleep spell is a good balancer) and the chance of death makes the successes all the sweeter. Winning a battle or surviving a deadly trap by the skin of your teeth is such a good feeling.

Yet.

None of the original party remain.

Usually this wouldnt be a big deal in the sandbox style. The premise being "Go out and amass gold and glory." Problem is, I gave them a specific quest at one point to save a party member who's life is on a timer. No one is left alive to care except the cursed party member. Which again not really a big deal as its all apart of the gold and glory thing.

But I do feel bad that there is a lack of attachment to the characters. Level 1-3 can be brutal especially for Wizards and the like. I can see why a lot of campaigns start at 3 or better.

My point:

Reading some Dragonlance and Drizzt novels and you never worried about Drizzt or Tanis etc dying to a rando goblin or trap (lets not get to far into Tanis' BS death but the point stands). These characters didn't start at 1, more like 3 (and they had awesome stats). But yeah Raistlin or Regis survived their first few adventures. OSE/BX Fighter, Elf, Thief, Cleric, Dwarf, Halfling, etc et etc did not.

I usually rag on modern D&D for being to easy on the players. And when I say this I say this as a DM that main runs published adventures. The WotC official ones seem to want it to be easier than usual. Ive run non-official published adventures and found those to be a good challenge for the players (though not always just due to baked in stuff like multi saves and going nova.

5.5 looks to take that further but I had to walk through the fire to I guess really get it.

Now Im not saying 5th ed has it right but there has to be a middle ground. I'm looking forward to taking 5.5 for a spin and maybe figure out how to make the official adventures less of a cake walk. Dragonlance, Planescape, and Vecna to name 3 I currently own. Double the monsters? IDK

OSE works pretty well and it's easy to house rule up and down. Perhaps poison isn't almost always a death sentence? Or perhaps just start at level 3 or 4?

I get how "Your character is the one who survived to level 3" is in fact true and also "Living to level 3 is your character's back story" is also true. A rite of passage and all that.

Though I suppose on the flip side, OSE/BX characters are so simplified and easy to play compared to 5E making, understanding, and playing a whole new character is fairly simple. But yeah I want them to be Big Damn Heroes with some actual danger.

Much to consider....
If you want to make official adventures less of a cake walk: My advice, do not make every fight harder but when you are preparing (reading through) the adventure, pick out the fights that you think could be interesting and amp them up. Use milestone levelling and pre- note where in the adventure you are going to grant the levels.
Make location combats dynamic. The first enemy grouping should react as guards, some try to block the party, and one signals the rest, blowing a horn, banging a gong or something.
The neighbours should then notice the alarm being raised and move to the defence.
 

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Stability is for what we consider STR saves in 5e: Pushes, Trips, Knockdowns, Grapples

Fortitude is more body immunity and for Con saves: Poisons, Disease, instant kill, cold, poison, or necrotic damage.

Big muscles won't help you survive poison gas. But it would make you harder to push over or back.

Allowing Fortitude to use STR or CON is a mechanical crutch to make sure more PCs has good Fortitude.

But why don't we just have the strong and tough classes have bonuses to being both strong and tough?

Why are do we make PCs only good at 2 of 6 saves or 1 of 3 saves then complain that PCs are weak to too many saving throws?...then nerf to compensate effects?... then say the game is too easy to win but PCs are too vulnerable to bring hosed?


In 2e, a fighter's saving throws were all in the low teens or tweens. Poison and Death was ~50/50. And from there they barely grew.

To me, a level 10 fighter might be a king's champion or a nationwide known swordmaster. Poisoning them or Knocking them down should be next to impossible unless you are also one or huge in size. They should be quick enough to dodge most fireballs and breath attacks. To take them out you need Psionics or nonphysical Magic.

Excellent vs Stability (STR)
Good vs Reflex (DEX)
Great vs Fortitude (CON)
Bad vs Psionics (INT)
Okay vs Willpower (WIS)
Bad vs Magic (CHA)

But a level 10 rogue who is a high ranking thieves guild member or a infamous Asian might be different.Speedy but crafty.

Terrible vs Stability (STR)
Excellent vs Reflex (DEX)
Great vs Fortitude (CON)
Great vs Psionics (INT)
Good vs Willpower (WIS)
Bad vs Magic (CHA)

The core idea is that saving throw bonuses should start low but grow fast with level and have multiple options for bonuses.

Death poison vs the stablehand: Certain Death.
Death poison vs the squire: Likely Death.
Death poison vs the knight: Unlikely to kill.
Death poison vs the knight commander: HAHAHAHA! I've sipped stronger wine. Give me another dose, coward.
As you probably already know, 3e already has this, but just rolled into 3 saves instead of 6: Fort, Reflex, Will.

It was based on your class (fighters fort went up faster than their Will but Will saves are big for clerics)
Your specific stat: Con, Dex, Wis
Your level
 

As you probably already know, 3e already has this, but just rolled into 3 saves instead of 6: Fort, Reflex, Will.

It was based on your class (fighters fort went up faster than their Will but Will saves are big for clerics)
Your specific stat: Con, Dex, Wis
Your level
The point was that 3 saves is too few so designers won't buff your saves as high as it should be.
 

Alternative:
Let 1st level characters have HP equivalent to what would have been a level 3 or 4 character before, but reduce the amount of HP they gain from levelling up thereafter. That way, the first level is not likely a death sentence, but death remains a reasonable possibility.

This is what 4e did. The precise numbers may not have been where they should be, but the concept is sound. It allows you to have that cushion without forcing a ton of mechanics (e.g. being level 3-4!) The only missing component, then, is "novice level" rules, which would allow folks who really want that grim-and-gritty. "surviving to level 3 is your backstory" experience to have their cake, without taking away the cake of the folks who don't want to deal with that.
All good for adventuring PCs, but how does this work for commoners (do they get more h.p. as well?) and low-grade monsters?

I ask because if you have to also up the h.p. of low-grade monsters (as in yer basic Goblins, Kobolds, etc.) in order to make them a viable threat even just to very low-level adventurers, the result is just power creep to no good purpose.
That combination--higher base HP, slower HP scaling, and novice levels--is the mirror image of what actual OSR games have done to address the "it's really pretty annoying/bothersome to have to spend months on end waiting to get that character who survived to 3rd level."
It's the piece in quotation marks there where things run aground for me: the attitude that it's really annoying or bothersome to spend that time. How did we get to the point where spending that time is annoying rather than fun?
That is, those games (specifically DCC first, others have since copied them) developed the funnel dungeon, where you run a bazillion low-level characters through, and the ones that survive become your starting stable of characters to draw upon.
Which only serves to speed up the weeding-out process the game goes through anyway.
As noted above, it's a fun challenge for those who desire it, and thus should be supported. But "a fun challenge for those who desire it" is a bad state to force EVERY player to go through--and right now, there are no good options for people who don't want that. Either you get the nice, simple, easy-to-make characters and really difficult survivability, OR you get survivable but much more complicated characters. That's not great. DCC's funnel solution doesn't work for something like 5e (or really any other version of WotC D&D or PF). A different solution is needed, like the one above.
The funnel solution could work OK in 3e if its char-gen was a whole lot simpler. It crashes in 5e because it's so much harder for characters to actually die.
That's why I advocate so strongly for developing robust, flexible, well-tested "novice level" rules, preferably ones that can spool levelling out almost indefinitely for those folks who really really like taking multiple years to reach even teen levels, let alone max.
On this we agree.
This, for me, is why having really really well-made, highly accurate encounter-building rules is so important. When you have such rules, you KNOW (up to the reasonable variation of statistics) that what you're doing is going to push the players to their limits, if that's what you want it to do. You can KNOW that, if you want a fight to be a cakewalk, it should in fact be a cakewalk unless the players do something to make things worse. Etc.

At that point, the vagaries of the dice are no longer the driving factor in encounter difficulty. Instead, it is player skill and DM skill that are the driving factors. Player skill because good plans lead to much better results, and bad plans lead to much worse results. DM skill because knowing how to push your players hard but not too hard is something only a living, breathing DM can do. It's something only a human with sensitivity and discernment can do. The rules can, in fact, help you to make the combat be as much what you want it to be as possible, but it's on you to actually DO that, to actually make it come to life and be scary or relaxed as you see fit.
What this does, though, is make it all very predictable for the DM...which while it might be your desired result, also means it's far less fun for the DM.

The whole point of having and using dice is to make the outcomes somewhat random. The players have means at their disposal to influence the odds in their favour (that's where player skill comes in), but player skill also includes knowing when to cut and run (even if it means sacrificing a party member or two), knowing when to talk instead of fight, and knowing how and when stealth is the better approach.

It's on the DM to provide challenges, of a more useful and interactive nature than "rocks fall, everyone dies"; but IMO it's not on the DM to tune it nearly as finely as what you propose here. As DM, you (or the module you're running) throw the challenge out there and let them make what they will - or can - of it.
Well-made tools make it easier to make beautiful finished work. They cannot replace skill--but excellent tools in the hands of an experienced user make the final result much, much better. Shoddy, flawed tools can still be brute forced into producing acceptable results, but they will be working against the maker, not with them. And while good tools in inexperienced hands will still produce rough results, the best tools include guidance for their use--and DMing tools are no exception.

We can, we should, we must demand better of the tools and teaching we impart to our DMs.
Teaching, yes. Tools - well, I'm not so sure about that; in that it would become all too easy to become reliant on said tools* rather than learning how to do it by feel (which is a learned DM skill); and in the hands of a rookie a 5-dollar hammer does just as good a job of thumb-mashing as a $250 Multi-Directional Impact Generator.

* - to wit, every time someone complains about the CR system in any WotC edition it speaks to an attempt to rely on a system that is, at very most, just a vague guideline not unlike "monster level" in the 1e DMG.
 

The whole goal of combat in B/X, and by extension, OSE, is NOT to fight fair.
Okay. How is this relevant? Players making mistakes is an expected part of play. The notion articulated by the OP is that players having the ability to survive small mistakes, but still suffering if they make major/severe mistakes, is a net positive for the experience overall.

If players are dying because they keep rushing headlong into fights, the lesson they need to learn is to plan the battle and stack the odds in their favor. <snip> And if the players are just outclassed by opponents or monsters that are too high a level for them, they need to learn how to run away and come back later.
Or the DM needs to get better at providing useful information to the players such that they actually understand the threat level they're expecting to face (as you noted in the bit about traps, which I have removed.)

It's a two-way street. I've seen WAY too many DMs who think their "subtle hints" are more than enough when they absolutely, emphatically ARE NOT, and only a mind reader could actually divine the intent from what they signal to their players.

That’s why the best settings are sandboxes:
As already noted: the best for you.

so players can go where they want, find out where the more approachable dungeons are and skip the harder ones until they’re higher level.
Sandboxes are not the only way to do this. I do not run a sandbox game, yet every single thing you've just said applies to at least parts of the game. The only major difference is that I actually make sure to give the players real, recognizable opportunities to figure out whether the danger is "approachable" BEFORE they go there, rather than the typical "hard" sandbox game DM, whose allegedly "subtle hints" include weird NPCs with unusual features (missing limbs, grizzled look, whatever) or vague signals easily misinterpreted for mere background color.

And sometimes, the only way to figure out which dungeons are the hard ones is by going in and getting jumped by something mean and running away.
The problem is, "getting jumped by something mean" almost always means "instant death" in older-style games. So there is no actual learning that occurs. You simply die, and have to start from scratch. Over. And over. And over. And over. And over. And over.

That's why funnels were invented--to skip past the tedious, time-consuming process of dying over and over and over, while still having the "earn your success" experience. There are other game design solutions as well, if one wishes to have a different default state--as noted in my first post in this thread.

Sure, bad rolls happen, but good planning and role-playing trumps bad dice rolls all the time.
Except they don't--in older-style play, where incredibly swingy dice tend to dominate, something numerous fans of the style have explicitly told me repeatedly. Indeed, it's the whole point! That's what you mean when you say "stack the odds in your favor"; what you are actually saying is, "never actually FIGHT at all, but instead destroy without triggering the fight rules." Which some--note, some--people find really fun! Most people, however, find that that gets really boring after a while, particularly because a very large number of players do not have DMs who are endless fountains of creative beyond-box thinking, so things tend to boil down to one of a handful (at best, half a dozen) old reliable tricks.

That, that right there, is literally the reason things like ear seekers, cloakers, "gotcha" cursed items, etc. exist in older-style D&D. The DM cannot be infinitely creative, but they're engaged in a DM-player arms race. Hence, they must at some point engage in impossible-to-foresee "gotcha" stuff, resetting the playing field until the players develop a new SOP which cuts through that particular gordian knot. And the cycle repeats, over and over and over.

This is why a number of other players have more fun with something where the rules are clear and not meant to be constantly subverted. Instead of the rules being a deathtrap to be avoided, they become an interesting obstacle to surmount. Instead of being a puzzle, where (because DM creativity is finite) there are usually only a small number of actually productive solutions, it becomes a tug of war, where it is actually possible to outmaneuver the enemy, rather than simply obliterating them or getting obliterated because you couldn't figure out how to obliterate them.

In the absolute ideal case, where it really is true that infinite possibilities are available to the players, then there can be a lot of fun in throwing allegedly insurmountable odds at the players and watching them surmount them anyway. But all too often, instead of being infinite possibilities, all it becomes is "can you read the DM's mind and find one of the three solutions they'll actually accept?" That falls far, far short of the ideal. If we're going to complain that clear, consistently-applied rules have cases where they don't produce the desired result, we should absolutely be making apples to apples comparisons. If we hold systematic rules to the worst possible applications thereof, we should compare it to the worst applications of the alternative as well—or we should recognize that the actual result from both things is neither ideal nor worst, but somewhere in-between, and ask what the typical performance is

And It bink you'll find that rules designed to actually work, and actually be used as they are (albeit with sensitivity and discernment), rather than being designed to be ignored and subverted constantly, produce much better average performance despite sacrificing theoretical maximum potential.

Why are do we make PCs only good at 2 of 6 saves or 1 of 3 saves then complain that PCs are weak to too many saving throws?...then nerf to compensate effects?... then say the game is too easy to win but PCs are too vulnerable to bring hosed?
I mean, in 4e you were always good at at least one, and generally two because most classes wanted ability scores from two different sets (e.g. Str/Cha, Con/Cha, or Str/Wis for Paladins). There were a few exceptions but they were uncommon, and could have been solved in the same way that (for example) Str-based Sorcerers, such as Dragon, got AC bonuses based off their Strength.
 

Stability is for what we consider STR saves in 5e: Pushes, Trips, Knockdowns, Grapples

Fortitude is more body immunity and for Con saves: Poisons, Disease, instant kill, cold, poison, or necrotic damage.

Big muscles won't help you survive poison gas. But it would make you harder to push over or back.
This makes sense, though that Strength list isn't exactly overwhelming in scope.
In 2e, a fighter's saving throws were all in the low teens or tweens. Poison and Death was ~50/50. And from there they barely grew.
Can't speak to 2e but in 1e everyone's saves vs most things started out awful but grew fairly steadily; never mind the characters would almost inevitably pick up save-enhancing magic as their careers went on.
To me, a level 10 fighter might be a king's champion or a nationwide known swordmaster. Poisoning them or Knocking them down should be next to impossible unless you are also one or huge in size. They should be quick enough to dodge most fireballs and breath attacks. To take them out you need Psionics or nonphysical Magic.

Excellent vs Stability (STR)
Good vs Reflex (DEX)
Great vs Fortitude (CON)
Bad vs Psionics (INT)
Okay vs Willpower (WIS)
Bad vs Magic (CHA)

But a level 10 rogue who is a high ranking thieves guild member or a infamous Asian might be different.Speedy but crafty.

Terrible vs Stability (STR)
Excellent vs Reflex (DEX)
Great vs Fortitude (CON)
Great vs Psionics (INT)
Good vs Willpower (WIS)
Bad vs Magic (CHA)

The core idea is that saving throw bonuses should start low but grow fast with level and have multiple options for bonuses.

Death poison vs the stablehand: Certain Death.
Death poison vs the squire: Likely Death.
Death poison vs the knight: Unlikely to kill.
Death poison vs the knight commander: HAHAHAHA! I've sipped stronger wine. Give me another dose, coward.
I still far prefer the saves be based on the condition/thing you're saving against (i.e. the 1e-2e system), with one's class setting the base save and high stats providing a bonus. Thus, death poison against a high-Con warrior at any level is less likely to succeed than against the middling-Con mage.

Side note: IMO the biggest error in the 1e save chart is that Thieves and Assassins should, by virtue of training and exposure, have a much better save matrix vs poison. For this reason alone, poison should be split out from death and paralysis and given its own matrix.
 

I mean, in 4e you were always good at at least one, and generally two because most classes wanted ability scores from two different sets (e.g. Str/Cha, Con/Cha, or Str/Wis for Paladins). There were a few exceptions but they were uncommon, and could have been solved in the same way that (for example) Str-based Sorcerers, such as Dragon, got AC bonuses based off their Strength

"Good at" is not the same as "Great at" or "Excellent at".

In 4e everything scaled up with you so you never really became "practically in able to fail".

And even your bad saves weren't that bad (as long as you took the feat tax and kept up with save items).

My desire is for low level PCs to be weak to some saves and mid level PCs to be excellent at 1 save, good or great with 2 and bad at the rest. High level PCs would be practically immune to some saves and only worry when rolling their weaker half of saving throws.
 

Can't speak to 2e but in 1e everyone's saves vs most things started out awful but grew fairly steadily; never mind the characters would almost inevitably pick up save-enhancing magic as their careers went on.

I still far prefer the saves be based on the condition/thing you're saving against (i.e. the 1e-2e system), with one's class setting the base save and high stats providing a bonus. Thus, death poison against a high-Con warrior at any level is less likely to succeed than against the middling-Con mage.

Side note: IMO the biggest error in the 1e save chart is that Thieves and Assassins should, by virtue of training and exposure, have a much better save matrix vs poison. For this reason alone, poison should be split out from death and paralysis and given its own matrix.
That's my preference as well

PCs would start weak with class saving throw bonuses of +0 or +2. Then by level 10, their good save is at +8 and bad save is at +2. Finally at level 20, their good saves might be +16.

And is would be before ability score adjustments.


This makes sense, though that Strength list isn't exactly overwhelming in scope
I'd add more squish and party high damage and blown away effects if I were in charge of my own clone game.

In gaming reality, fighting giant monsters and supper strong humaniods a lot would trigger "Saving throws vs Squashed" a lot.
 

Or the DM needs to get better at providing useful information to the players such that they actually understand the threat level they're expecting to face (as you noted in the bit about traps, which I have removed.)

It's a two-way street. I've seen WAY too many DMs who think their "subtle hints" are more than enough when they absolutely, emphatically ARE NOT, and only a mind reader could actually divine the intent from what they signal to their players.
The answer there is to always interpret anyhting that even remotely sounds like a hint of danger as a hint of danger and proceed accordingly, i.e. either with great caution or face-first, depending on your party/characters/mood.
The problem is, "getting jumped by something mean" almost always means "instant death" in older-style games. So there is no actual learning that occurs.
If it's a TPK, you're right. But if players run their characters with any sense of self-preservation, true TPKs should be extremely rare.

If there's any survivors, then someone learned something and can - one hopes - put that knowledge to use next time out.
You simply die, and have to start from scratch. Over. And over. And over. And over. And over. And over.
And, as a player, every time* I start over I get to roll up and run out a new character idea. That alone is more than enough to keep me interested in the process.

* - exception: if my character dies in its first played session (it's happened!) before anyone got to know it then I might come right back with the same concept again.
That's why funnels were invented--to skip past the tedious, time-consuming process of dying over and over and over, while still having the "earn your success" experience. There are other game design solutions as well, if one wishes to have a different default state--as noted in my first post in this thread.
It also depends on how long everyone expects the campaign as a whole to last. If you're looking for a one-year 1-20 campaign then sure, blow through the low levels. But if the campaign's intended to last 10+ years then as a DM you want to spin those low levels out as long as you can in order to delay getitng to near-capstone levels where the game becomes almost unplayable.
Except they don't--in older-style play, where incredibly swingy dice tend to dominate, something numerous fans of the style have explicitly told me repeatedly. Indeed, it's the whole point! That's what you mean when you say "stack the odds in your favor"; what you are actually saying is, "never actually FIGHT at all, but instead destroy without triggering the fight rules." Which some--note, some--people find really fun! Most people, however, find that that gets really boring after a while, particularly because a very large number of players do not have DMs who are endless fountains of creative beyond-box thinking, so things tend to boil down to one of a handful (at best, half a dozen) old reliable tricks.
A half-dozen old reliable tricks is still five more than the single old reliable trick of fighting.

This comes back to the old combat-as-war vs combat-as-sport debate. I (and others, I think) am approaching this from a very C-as-W perspective, where combat probably shouldn't be option 1 or even option 2 or 3 because combat is where the greatest risk lies.
That, that right there, is literally the reason things like ear seekers, cloakers, "gotcha" cursed items, etc. exist in older-style D&D. The DM cannot be infinitely creative, but they're engaged in a DM-player arms race. Hence, they must at some point engage in impossible-to-foresee "gotcha" stuff, resetting the playing field until the players develop a new SOP which cuts through that particular gordian knot. And the cycle repeats, over and over and over.
For some of us, "gotcha" is sometimes a feature rather than a bug. Danger awaits around every corner and sometimes you don't - or can't - see it coming.

I've never DMed ear seekers in my life; and rot grubs just once, only because the module I was running had them in. But cursed items, cloakers/lurkers/trappers, ambushes, death traps? Hell yeah, now and then.

As with anything, though, don't overdo it. :)
 

PCs would start weak with class saving throw bonuses of +0 or +2. Then by level 10, their good save is at +8 and bad save is at +2. Finally at level 20, their good saves might be +16.
And is would be before ability score adjustments.
And what DC would they be saving against?

EDIT: So, if their good saves are +21 before adjustments for items (presumably +15 for poor saves)
You've essentially make them immune to spells and effects with a 16 DC and less.
 

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