D&D 5E Bravely running away

[TiQuinn]

Deadly encounters are tuned to drain about 1/3 of a party's daily resources. They shouldn't kill a party unless they're extremely low on resources, especially if you're playing with experienced player or players that are min-maxing hard.

That’s the math not adjusted for party decisions or randomness. The math is not necessarily in dispute but the way you are positing this is as if the party retreating is due to a failure of the DM to size the encounter properly (I’m not even going to touch where the math of encounter sizing in 5e is simply dead wrong.)

 

[Lanefan]

I'm just saying that it can be very difficult to tell when it's time to retreat unless it's so overwhelmingly obvious that the GM says "your characters would know to run."

After the first few melee swings where the opponent is hitting you on a whim and yet you're lucky if you can touch it, it's very likely time to start looking for an exit strategy.

 

[Lanefan]

Difficult in-character decisions are one thing, but this is you looking at the friend across the table from you, and deciding for them whether they still get to play their character or not. That's a whole different level of difficult.

Only because they didn't decide to run first...

 

[ezo]

Part of the social contract of 5e is that the PCs will not flee from combat, and that the GM is designing all combats to be winnable.

I could not DISAGREE with you more if I tried!

I design encounters around the STORY and I don't give a crap about "balance" or the PCs winning. I have had groups turn away from adventures because they didn't think they could handle, quest to find the champion that could do it (usually with their help), or return when they were strong enough to try to win.

This also means as the PCs get stronger, many encounters become very easy for them. I am ok with that. They get resolved quickly and the players enjoy the feeling of accomplishment and power their characters have achieved.

Even "Deadly" encounters should be easily within the capabilities of most parties.

If the party is completely rested, odds are a designed deadly encounter will be a challenge, but do-able.

5e is an attrition game. The choice of whether or not to flee is not made during combat - it is made between combats when the party is considering their overall daily resources (spell slots, hit dice, etc).

Sometimes, sometimes not. Many times the PCs, when not at full strength, decide to push on--only to realize that next encounter IS deadly--and they are not quite at strength to deal with it successfully.

Character deaths and TPKs should result from the party's unwillingness to retreat+recover, not due to GMs setting encounter difficulties above recommended thresholds. Fleeing during combat is purposefully difficult - once you've entered combat, you must finish it, for good or ill. Attempting to flee will lead to death, always.

Most of the time that is true--player over-confidence leads to most TPKs, etc. But if the DM sets encounters according to the story/adventure, it is on the players to understand that (and something I cover in session 0) and know that the encounters will not be engineered with the design for them to win all the time.

 

[Nefermandias]

Part of the social contract of 5e is that the PCs will not flee from combat, and that the GM is designing all combats to be winnable.

Who said that?

 

[ezo]

One point I noticed in the Chase rules, there aren't attacks of opportunity. Doesn't help much, just fyi.

Well, there are, but not like normal, correct.

However, once a "chaser" re-engages an enemy, the chase is over. Then OA's work as normal as I see it.

 

[ezo]

Example of a higher combat speed failing in the real world:

LOL that is hilarious!!!

That is an example of the high speed chaser never even reaching the pursued. The cheetah gave up because it ran out of steam before it even reached the gazelle...

In games, if the PCs are deciding to flee, it is 90+% of the time when they are already engaged in combat.

You put that cheetah right next to the gazelle and the cheetah will be enjoying a nice snack most of the time.

 

[MarkB]

In our current game the DM introduced an Escape rule that if all players decide to retreat from combat, they do so successfully without taking any further casualties.

We then collectively entirely forgot about this houserule in an early combat where an enemy brought a one-hit-kill weapon to a fight in which we were already stretched for resources, resulting in a near-TPK, the only character to successfully retreat being the tabaxi with Feline Agility.

 

[S'mon]

LOL I have enemies try to escape, but often they are pursued, caught, surrender, etc.

Relief is rarely felt, since if the enemies are fleeing most often the PCs have the encounter well-in-hand already.


Oh, on that point I argee. Creatures should have more varied speeds, for example. And after the manticore failed escape scene, I have doubted the fly speed for any creature that has a natural fly speed. The speeds listed would barely be fast enough to keep most birds aloft, let alone flying at their typical speeds.

Even treating it as an abstraction, there are some issues IMO that pop up, but general DMs just have to go with it and whatever makes most sense for the scene works for me.


And that is the crux of the issue for most groups.

A hell hound has a speed of 50. So, a PC engaged with a hellhound runs, prokoving an OA, but survives and moves & Dashes 60 feet. Meanwhile the hellhound moves 50 feet, and breathes with a 15' cone, hitting the PC. The PC lives and runs again, the hellhound moves again and either breathes again (if it recharged), or dashes to get in front of the PC and engage them again. Now, the PC provokes another OA, and it continues. The PC also has to worry about exhaustion because of dashing, where the hellhound doesn't have to dash every round to keep up.

You are better of standing and fighting or surrendering.

Without magic to enable your escape, even cunning action won't likely help until you can break away enough to find someplace to hide and manage to beat the DC 20 passive perception for the hellhound (due to keen senses).


It is very hard. But then again, if you ever played tag, usually someone does get tagged. Escape isn't as easy as some people like to think IMO...

I'm definitely fine with hellhounds being extremely hard to get away from! Some creatures should be very hard to escape.

 

[SpellObjectEnthusiast]

I don't give a crap about "balance" or the PCs winning

Then sometimes the PCs will lose, and when PCs lose they tend to all die. If your players a cool with re-rolling frequently, that's not a problem.

If the party is completely rested, odds are a designed deadly encounter will be a challenge, but do-able.

Agree.

Many times the PCs, when not at full strength, decide to push on--only to realize that next encounter IS deadly--and they are not quite at strength to deal with it successfully.

Then their characters should die. They will learn not to be overconfident next time.