D&D 5E Running 5e at high Levels

[TheSword]

So the WotC’s first high level campaign book comes out at the same time as I’m just finishing the Age of Worms 1-20 campaign that Paizo published for D&D 3e in the pages of Dungeon Magazine.

I’ve been lucky to have a really good online group of four players who have the balance between roleplay and combat efficiency. They get into character, they explore, they have a little knowledge about the settings but haven’t played stuff before. It’s a great combination.

The campaign was an absolute blast from levels 1-12 some of the best gaming I’ve experienced. It’s a great, original and fascinating adventure path. Unfortunately it breaks down with the 7th installment for level 13-15 PCs, which essentially involves a set of combats followed by visions. There are options for roleplay solutions but those solutions require setting evil creatures free so aren’t really an option. So the entire adventure turns into a combat fest.

That was followed up with a playful chapter involving a feast and some RP challenges which was a lot of fun, surrounded by a load of filler combats which weren’t so fun. The following chapter involved five combat challenges that led to a vision. By this point at 17th level these combat are taking so long to resolve that in a 2 to 2 1/2 hour session a single combat is taking up half to two thirds of it even on VTT. Where we would normally get through 2-3 in the same time at early levels. That’s a problem - particularly for a group likes a mix.

Second issue is that challenge becomes extremely difficult because the difference between TPK and barely denting the PCs fees very close. A CR 17 creature is definitely not a challenge for a party of four level 17 PCs unless it is tailored to their destruction. So I’m running CR 20+ creatures against them.

Third issue as we enter Tier 4 and everything gets more fantastical there is a lot more jumping about. Knowledge of the area, politics, special circumstances etc becomes reduced therefore there is less opportunity to find satisfying RP solutions. Also the presence of existential evil alongside this is more likely to lead to combat solutions.

All in all it’s a quandary and it it meant I decided to skip 10th and 11th chapters and head straight to the finale which we are all meeting up to run in person in two weeks time. Don’t get me wrong, it’s been a blast, but one which has definitely run its course. My main aim now is to finish it as well as I can. Remove about 3/4 of the combat encounters and end with a satisfying conclusion to the saga.

Anyone else found these problems in any D&D adjacent system? Or their own games. Any solutions or experiences of your own, you want to share? I’m really interested as a player to see how Vecna works with me as a player. I hope they can avoid some of these pitfalls. Please don’t add Vecna spoilers for specific details though.

 

[MerricB]

I've run my own homebrew 5E Greyhawk campaign up to level 20. We had a lot of fun. (We're currently at level 13 in the successor campaign).

I'm a fan of the players - sort of - and so any wacky solution they want to try is fine by me. But I tend to create my own monsters and add in interesting immunities and vulnerabilities. The spellcasters of the group were not so fond of the "Space Trolls" (trolls wearing extradimensional armour) which reflected their spells back at them - at least until they worked out the trick to negate that!

I find Big Bruiser melee monsters tend to actually work really well. Just make sure they have a +10 attack bonus or better and enough damage to matter; though that value depends on your preferences. And have a couple of other monsters that can attack at range. I am not a fan of monsters who just TPK the party. You can do a lot better than that. (Area of Effect stun attacks? Not a chance!)

By those levels, challenge ratings aren't an exact science - and the capabilities of the group can vary immensely. So just keep an eye on what ends up being fun and doing more of that.

I've been fortunate to not have a group which is doing a lot of objective jumping. Things like Teleport and Scrying are underused. Even so, I think most of the scenarios I design hamper "easy" victories by those methods.

Back in the day, I ran ALL of Age of Worms (up to level 21) using 3.5E rules. It had a few problems in its original ruleset, which were a key factor of why I moved away to 4E when that released.

Cheers,
Merric

 

[payn]

I'm confused, are you playing PF1 and expecting 5E to play similar at high level? My experience is they dont. 5E runs smoother and faster but its not as exciting. I'm guessing both have lots of filler fights at high level but for different reasons. PF1 because PCs have too many resources at their disposal. 5E because of the weird short and long rest design decision leading to buckets of fights everyday. I'm guessing you dialing back which is why the fights you do have need to be cranked up in CR. Personaly, I prefer dialing up the challenge than suffering so many pointless battles.

 

[AnotherGuy]

Run only combats that are (i) interesting, (ii) push the story and (iii) there are stakes involved.
Try include less attrition-based combats.

Attrition combats could be converted to Skill Challenges with stakes laid bare up-front, Fail Forward, Success with Complications

Design your own monsters and raise the bar to always deadly

 

[OB1]

As a general rule, I've found you can throw 150% CR solo at a party and they'll figure out a way to succeed (solo can include some cannon fodder at 50%CR. So For level 17 you'd be looking at topping out at CR25 with 6-8 minions at CR 8.

You can also run one monster for each PC at 80-90%CR plus 1 at 110-120%.

That said, at level 17 and above with synergistic magic items, the party can almost always find a way to succeed or escape no matter what you throw at them, so my suggestion is to go wild based on what makes sense for the story.

 

[billd91]

Second issue is that challenge becomes extremely difficult because the difference between TPK and barely denting the PCs fees very close. A CR 17 creature is definitely not a challenge for a party of four level 17 PCs unless it is tailored to their destruction. So I’m running CR 20+ creatures against them.

Third issue as we enter Tier 4 and everything gets more fantastical there is a lot more jumping about. Knowledge of the area, politics, special circumstances etc becomes reduced therefore there is less opportunity to find satisfying RP solutions. Also the presence of existential evil alongside this is more likely to lead to combat solutions.

All in all it’s a quandary and it it meant I decided to skip 10th and 11th chapters and head straight to the finale which we are all meeting up to run in person in two weeks time. Don’t get me wrong, it’s been a blast, but one which has definitely run its course. My main aim now is to finish it as well as I can. Remove about 3/4 of the combat encounters and end with a satisfying conclusion to the saga.

I'm doing the same - AoW converted to 5e. We're currently in chapter 11 with the PCs having recovered 2 of the 3 fragments and in the Apostle Caves. There are currently 6 PCs at 18th level. We play about 3 hours a week.

And, yes, really challenging them can be a challenge in and of itself. I don't really mind too much if they blow through things - I just want to set up things to be memorable. So, I too am working on weeding out unnecessary fights in favor of more interesting situations while still giving them a taste of the original plans. I am having fun adapting Dragotha's hoard of loot. I'm going to preserve some of the more potent elements in it to see if the PCs bite for any of them. The 3 attunement limit really does have them carefully considering their choices. They may actually pass up a vorpal sword as a primary weapon...

 

[wedgeski]

I'm running a 17th level 5E campaign. Most of the players have never played at this kind of level. They're only now discovering the possibilities of scrying, divination, wish, etc. Adjustment to Wish have done wonders for abuse of that spell (I never relished the "deliberately misinterpret the wording to nerf the spell" school of thinking), but still leaves the problem to contend with of opening the vast majority of spells to the party.

Scrying I see as more of an opportunity than a game-breaker. They've been subject to it multiple times, and it always freaks them out. Whenever they use it for themselves, it's always a fun chance to reveal just enough to make the spell worth using, but not so much it short-cuts entire sessions.

Challenging them overall is a matter of setting what seems like an impossible task, and letting them roll. Don't be afraid to curtail game-breaking effects. The party has had 17 levels to enjoy teleporting about the place; I feel no guilt making it a risky proposition in the area of the Underdark where the campaign is reaching its conclusion. Alternatively, give the players a reason not to short-circuit a location. The paladin in my group correctly suspects that the last gem required to acvtivate his dormant Holy Avenger may well be in a hidden vault somewhere near their current location. He would certainly balk at the idea of a long-range teleport into the next adventure.

Challenging them in combat is (as I see it) a simple matter of ensuring there are goals that don't revolve around killing a foe. Keep this NPC alive. Stop that thing from collapsing. Slow down this thing so xyz can heppn before it arrives. Make the monsters an environmental hazard, not the goal. This has been my go-to design ethic for some time.

Where the monsters are the goal, just build something you think will be impossible to kill, and proceed to be amazed at the ingenuity and resilience of your players. This means being prepared to watch hours of careful prep go up in flames in 2 rounds. Be prepared to adjust the encounter on the fly (I know this is anathema to some DM's) with extra monster waves, or other effects that you can turn on or off as needed. Then again, when players hear they face-rolled what you assumed would be a deadly fight, it certainly puts a smile on their faces.

 

[billd91]

Oh, and while we're on the subject, thanks to many of 5e's revisions to spells and inter-class balance, high level 5e is MUCH easier to run than PF1 at the same levels and has fewer issues than I remember even 12th level play in AD&D. So while there are challenges, I'm finding them so much more manageable than the previous editions I've run.

 

[Swarmkeeper]

What's all this about "high level"?

I thought there were only 2 4 things sure in life: death, taxes, no one reads the DMG, and all campaigns fizzle around level 10 or 11...

 

[TheSword]

I'm confused, are you playing PF1 and expecting 5E to play similar at high level? My experience is they dont. 5E runs smoother and faster but its not as exciting. I'm guessing both have lots of filler fights at high level but for different reasons. PF1 because PCs have too many resources at their disposal. 5E because of the weird short and long rest design decision leading to buckets of fights everyday. I'm guessing you dialing back which is why the fights you do have need to be cranked up in CR. Personaly, I prefer dialing up the challenge than suffering so many pointless battles.

Yeah is a 3e campaign converted to 5e. The conversion is fine and yes removing most fights and only keeping key ones has been my plan for the last 4 or 5 levels.

I had the party recover the phylactery from Tindalos island where it was secreted outside of space and time. But two months have passed in Faerun time giving Lashona time to complete the spire in Luskan,

Dragotha will seek the party in Red Larch at Manzorian Harpel’s house and they’ll either fight or deal with him then head to Luskan. I’m thinking the meetings they made in Luskan will make saving the city interesting.