TSR How Did I Survive AD&D? Fudging and Railroads, Apparently

Yes - sandboxes take GM work! Relying purely on random generation sucks. But most of the work can be done during play, as you develop the setting, which I find pretty easy and fun if the starting conditions are good (I have abandoned sandboxes that weren't working well).

One reason I have generally disliked the term sandbox, just as a matter of terminology, not as a matter of concept, is it implies a static box filled with objects the GM places down. I think this is especially the case if it starts to feel like there are adventure set down, locked and loaded, ready to go when the PCs stumble upon them. But I think it is very important to remember the setting is a dynamic place and the GM has to continue being creative and thoughtful as the players interact with it. The GMs ability to adapt when the players go in directions you didn't prepare for in a sandbox is still important, the GMs ability to improvise and flow with the players is important, the GMs ability to run NPCs and groups as consistent, living and breathing entities is important, etc.
 

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The fallout of this stance is that your definition of railroad is so very different from others definition that using the term simply becomes confusing. Most people would not consider that a railroad. Further, the game that you’ve been describing is so locked into a dungeon only paradigm that I rather doubt it would’ve survived 50 years up to today except in a very small community.
One sort of non-railroad game is classic dungeon-crawling.

Another is scene-framed play of the sort that - in terms of published RPGs - really begins with Prince Valiant in the late 1980s. 4e D&D is the most commercially successful RPG to work with this sort of approach. HeroWars/Quest (Robin Laws), Burning Wheel (Luke Crane) and Marvel Heroic RP/Cortex+-Prime (Cam Banks) are probably the best-known non-D&D RPGs to use this approach.

Another non-railroad approach is "if you do it, you do it" - I think Classic Traveller is the first published RPG with very strong elements of this (although the 1981 revision pushed more towards railroad-y "storytelling"). The phrase itself comes from Apoclaypse World, and AW and some of its successors/descendants are probably the best known RPGs in this style.

There are probably other approaches t0o, for instance exploration-oriented "social crawls".

So I think you are wrong to say that I am "locked into a dungeon only paradigm". What I am locked into are the questions of who decides what is at stake and who decides what the goals of play are and who decides what counts as success/failure. The various approaches that I've described all provide answers to those questions that are not just "the GM decides".


The stakes set by the DM are not secret unless the DM is following a pattern that is not advised for creating a good adventure.
I have seen many adventures where NPCs secretly betray the PCs, although the adventure - and the GM in narrating the fiction to the players - presents the PC as an ally or quest-giver or similar.

I have seen, on these boards, the assertion that it would matter for the GM to decide that an ogre is encountered to the West, if the players decide to go west, or to the East, if the players decide to go east, although the players themselves don't know anything about what is west or what is east.

These are just simple examples of secret stakes. Many more could be given - for instance, the players have their PCs kill a NPC and the GM - relying on their own secret notes about that NPC and the relationships that NPC is part of - then determines consequences that follow from that killing, which then come back to ramify upon the PCs' circumstances. Or the GM deciding that the NPCs do such-and-such a thing, which ramifies upon the PCs' circumstances, because a certain amount of in-game time has passed without the NPCs being stopped.

Secret stakes are incredibly common, and very widely advocated - often using the language of "consequences" and/or "living, breath world".

That is not how the quantum ogre works. The quantum ogre is still there no matter what.
What is the "what" in No matter what? And what is the "there" in "the quantum ogre is still there"?

If the direction the players choose is just colour - so if they choose to go west the GM will describe setting suns and ocean shores, while if they choose to go east the GM will describe rising suns and rolling hills - then what does it matter that the GM has decided to frame an ogre either way?

Conversely, suppose the players declare an action to steer clear of ogres (eg suppose that they seek out information about ogre-populated locales; or suppose they use divination magic; etc) and succeed: then it is ignoring the players' success at action resolution for the GM to frame the PCs into a conflict with an ogre, and the "there" really has nothing to do with it.

Now if we take as a premise that play follows the following procedure:

* The GM draws up and keys a map, and writes up encounter tables etc to supplement the key;

* The players are supposed to make choices about where their PCs go on the map, and those choices are then supposed to interact with the key and the encounter tables to determine what it is the PCs encounter;​

The the GM should not be using "quantum ogres". Because that would violate the procedures of play. But (i) I don't think many people who use "quantum ogres" are purporting to use the procedures of play that I've described; and (ii) the procedures of play that I've described will tend to make for pretty low-agency play unless there is the possibility of the players learning the contents of the key and the tables other than by way of triggering encounters (and D&D tends to lack that possibility outside of the dungeon context). Hence why I find most complaints about "quantum ogres" to be unpersuasive - they are manifestations of an aesthetic preference (ie for play that follows the procedure I've outlined) but don't really connect very much to player agency or railroading.

(EDITed to fix some quote problems.)
 
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What you're talking about here is a popular way to run games outside of D&D, the PbtA or FitD way (that's Powered by the Apocalypse and Forged in the Dark, sometimes I hate it when people use these terms that I've never heard of). The idea is that those games have virtually no GM prep and just riff off of what the players do.
I think that scene-framed play is very possible using D&D. I've done it in AD&D (in the mid-to-late 80s) and in 4e D&D (in a 1st to 30th campaign from 2009 to 2016).

D&D has the big advantage, in this respect, of shipping with a Monster Manual (so stats are there ready-to-hand) and having many modules from which maps, traps, basic situations/set-ups can be taken.

They also require a very good GM who's good at improv. Sadly, not everyone can do that.

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It's been my experience that running these games where you "play to find out what happens," requires both a good GM and good players, so once again it can be difficult to get there.
I think this issue of "good players" or "good GMing" can be exaggerated.

I mean, is it that hard to make up fun fantasy-themed shenanigans with one's friends? When I was doing this in AD&D I was a teenager, playing with my brother and our friend from down the road in our little country town. The fiction we created wasn't great literature or anything, but it was fun for me as GM to come up with ideas about Chemosh cultists in Critwall (building on the evil priest and cult stuff in KotB) and for them to get up to hijinks with their multi-classed thieves.
 

none of the official D&D settings ever evolve in such a way that demonstrates the impact of player agency.
while they sometimes advance timelines, they keep the setting in relative stasis.
But how else would a commercial publisher do things? I mean, TSR/WotC is not going to change what they publish based on what happened in your game.

The changes in the settings are things that occur in all our games, and that we keep track of. Like in one of my Greyhawk games (played using Rolemaster as the system), the PCs inadvertently carried a plague to Rookroost, nearly destroying the city. In my current Greyhawk game (played using Torchbearer 2e as the system), I decided to stick with this event (even though it is really just colour) and so Stoink rather than Rookroost is the major city of the Bandit Kingdoms.

In a later stage of that earlier game, the PCs were part of a plan whereby the Great Kingdom conquered Rel Astra. That game came to its end in the late 90s. The fact that, at that time, TSR/WotC was publishing GH stuff that didn't reflect what had happened at our table didn't make any difference to us.
 



I think that it hit me, after looking behind the curtain, that my core memories were all artificial. Every epic moment was scripted by some dude at TSR.
It might be a "no duh" moment for many of you, but it's really shattered my rose-colored glasses of nostalgia.
I've been asking myself for over 20 years, "why can't I run a good, memorable campaign?" Apparently, it's because I'm following standards of player agency, "playing to find out," etc.
If you're interested in running a good, memorable campaign using a module of the pre-scripted sort, I think this blog has some useful advice for that approach: Observations on GNS Simulationism – Correspondence is about Diligence

It uses DL as a case study, but the points are quite general and can easily be applied to other pre-scripted adventures. The main point it makes is that, if you're running this sort of adventure, trying to pretend it's not pre-scripted is probably a waste of time. Rather, you (as GM) should really focus on making those epic moments be as epic as possible in the way they're experienced and play out.
 

This can happen with sandboxing if you (a) don't use guard rails (b) your players aren't very good/competent/suited or (c) You're not very competent and run a boring sandbox. I've seen all these. But I run OSR style games where very often we get fantastic moments and drama, so I know it's doable. I think the most important thing is players who treat it as a living world, and GMs who are flexible and adaptable to player plans. My last session (Shadowdark) there was some great stuff
My experience has been the exact opposite. Running an Adventure Path never compares to the truly epic nature of an emergent story. Player agency is how you get to see Hubris & Nemesis in the dramatic tale of a warrior who becomes king by his own hand, welding together a disparate collection of free peoples to defeat the Dark Lord - then throws it all away through his own arrogance.
As you know, I'm not really into the sandbox style.

But I agree that it is quite doable to have epic and memorable stuff, quite frequently, without having to pre-script. Avoiding boring stuff is an excellent start, in scene-frame-y play as much as in sandbox play.
 

As you know, I'm not really into the sandbox style.

But I agree that it is quite doable to have epic and memorable stuff, quite frequently, without having to pre-script. Avoiding boring stuff is an excellent start, in scene-frame-y play as much as in sandbox play.

Define pre script?

I do planned encounters and might use a published adventure.

If I design my own it's probably 12-20 numbers for the encounters and bullet points for major plot points over 2 pages. Small list of NPCs that matter.
 

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