D&D General Greyhawk Humanocentricism?

[Parmandur]

But this is exactly what I was talking about. You have the dwarf land and the elf land and etc.

What you almost never have is multi-cultural land. Which makes zero sense when you start to think about it. Every major port should be a huge melting pot unless there is something specific preventing it.

The whole “cantina scene” thing should be the default in a world with a bajillion sentient species. Or if not the default, it should be a helluva lot more common than it is.

I mean, in Greyhawk, the core of the Setting, Greyhawk down through Dyvets and the Wild Coast, is that diverse cosmopolitan deal. Even ethnically, that's where all the Himan groups mingle freely.

 

[Epic Meepo]

But this is exactly what I was talking about. You have the dwarf land and the elf land and etc.

What you almost never have is multi-cultural land. Which makes zero sense when you start to think about it. Every major port should be a huge melting pot unless there is something specific preventing it.

The whole “cantina scene” thing should be the default in a world with a bajillion sentient species. Or if not the default, it should be a helluva lot more common than it is.

I'm not sure why you're quoting me here. I was responding to post a claiming most lands in Faerun had human majorities. I replied with examples of lands in Faerun with non-human majorities. Of course my hand-picked examples of lands with non-human majorities aren't going to be multicultural; that's why I chose them as examples of lands with clear non-human majorities.

Off the top of my head, if I was going to provide examples of multicultural places in Faerun (not counting Myth Drannor, which is currently in ruins), I would cite:

• Dhaztanar (dwarves, elves, goblin-kin, halflings, humans)
• Durpar, post-4e (goblins, halflings, hill giants, humans, kenku, rakshasas)
• The Nelanther Isles (humans, lizardfolk, ogres, orcs)
• The Shaar (gnolls, humans, loxo, thri-kreen, wemics)
• Thay (dwarves, gnolls, humans, minotaurs, orcs, tielfings, undead)
• Thesk (gnomes, goliaths, humans, orcs)
• Waterdeep (just about everything if you include Skullport)
• most drow cities (drow, goblins, half-fiends, minotaurs, ogres, orcs, trolls)

 

[billd91]

We were dancing around another setting and topic- one of the very oldest, and (arguably) the first "D&D" setting. Which was pretty cool, given that it was a setting that had a lot of depth and was constructed prior to D&D by a linguist, kinda like the other one ... you know, by Tol-keen.

But ... certain recent things have emerged about the author of the setting. On the scale of H. P. Lovecraft to Marion Zimmer Bradley, I'd rate it ... bad.*

*Okay, worse than HP, not nearly Bradley, but I'm not sure you can really rate these kinds of things.

Yeah, I figured it was MAR Barker from the beginning. But why are you dancing around the ol’ Neo-Nazi’s name?

 

[Snarf Zagyg]

Yeah, I figured it was MAR Barker from the beginning. But why are you dancing around the ol’ Neo-Nazi’s name?

,,,because it just makes me sad.

Heck, I read a little while ago something about Isaac Asimov, and I was like ... c'mon, universe. Ya gotta stop delivering the hits already.

I know people suck. I just hate having it proved so often and so spectacularly.

 

[billd91]

,,,because it just makes me sad.

Heck, I read a little while ago something about Isaac Asimov, and I was like ... c'mon, universe. Ya gotta stop delivering the hits already.

I know people suck. I just hate having it proved so often and so spectacularly.

Yeah, don’t read up on recent developments around Neil Gaiman (I mean JESUS, NEIL! What the hell?!?)

 

[Micah Sweet]

,,,because it just makes me sad.

Heck, I read a little while ago something about Isaac Asimov, and I was like ... c'mon, universe. Ya gotta stop delivering the hits already.

I know people suck. I just hate having it proved so often and so spectacularly.

See to me, when so many people suck, it actually makes it easier for me to separate author from authored.

 

[EzekielRaiden]

I don't see why this bothers you so much. You're apparently fine with making your own stuff, and listed a couple examples that lean more toward your preference. Are you just mad that you're not in the majority on this? Again, I can relate.

No. I'm annoyed because basically everyone who ever speaks positively about D&D specifically, or TTRPGs in general, spouts off about how the thing that makes it special and different (and wonderful) is that you can do anything. The whole of human creative freedom is accessible to you.

And then they go and tread paths so well-worn, you can't see side to side anymore because a thousand previous settings have already trodden a ravine into it.

This bothers me a lot. Because it implies some kind of contradiction, and neither of the paths forward are good ones. On the one hand, it could be that people are simply mistaken and TTRPGs don't actually embrace the breadth of human creativity. On the other, it could be that there's a distressing quantity of disingenuous people who claim to want to see creativity and novelty and the unique things that can only happen because there's a real person behind it, but actually want to see pretty much exactly the same thing, every single time, forever.

It would be like 10% of all the people you meet telling you that the beauty of home cooking is that you can make whatever you want, and then the only things that anyone actually makes are cheeseburgers and fries. Not saying cheeseburgers and fries are bad, I love a good cheeseburger and it is quite possible to make them better or worse etc. But something is off between those two things.

 

[EzekielRaiden]

I think the beauty of the base game is that you can build all those things as your campaign world. I don't think Greyhawk should be smooshed to accommodate all new races equally though. They should all be location specific and rarer than gnomes.

Okay. My argument isn't (and has not been) that Greyhawk itself needs to accommodate all things.

It is instead that I am annoyed at the tendency of what feels like 90% or more of creators to only create minimally-edited carbon copies of Tolkien's works, or one of the works that already did that, or one of the works that did that to one of those, etc.

Fantasy in general, and TTRPGs in particular, is all about exploring things that are not real, but which are plausible. It gets more than a little tedious when so. damn. many. TTRPG settings are just.....Middle-Earth, With Crappy Realpolitik, or Middle-Earth But Hyper-Racist, or Middle-Earth But There's One New Sapient Species. Tolkien casts a shadow over the genre for a good reason....but I really wish people wouldn't confine themselves so damn hard to that shadow and nearly nothing else.

I don't mistreat female fighter PCs but I might make it tougher for them to lead, persuade, or inspire fighting men that don't know them. It mostly impacts how I portray the common folk.

Given how you have said this...you should be very careful about exactly how you do what you've described. Because it is much, much easier than you might think to accidentally teach your players, "Playing women is a bad idea that will screw you over, so never do that." I find that a lot of DMs with old-school preferences are prone to overlooking how their behavior and presentation teaches their players how and what to play. I'm not saying this definitely applies to you. Just that the phrasing you used here implies higher risk of falling into that kind of situation.

 

[Crimson Longinus]

Okay. My argument isn't (and has not been) that Greyhawk itself needs to accommodate all things.

It is instead that I am annoyed at the tendency of what feels like 90% or more of creators to only create minimally-edited carbon copies of Tolkien's works, or one of the works that already did that, or one of the works that did that to one of those, etc.

Fantasy in general, and TTRPGs in particular, is all about exploring things that are not real, but which are plausible. It gets more than a little tedious when so. damn. many. TTRPG settings are just.....Middle-Earth, With Crappy Realpolitik, or Middle-Earth But Hyper-Racist, or Middle-Earth But There's One New Sapient Species. Tolkien casts a shadow over the genre for a good reason....but I really wish people wouldn't confine themselves so damn hard to that shadow and nearly nothing else.

So I feel pretty much the same way than you about tired Tolkien pastiches (though I love Tolkien,) but what I don't get is why you care so much about what other people do. I was bored of tolkienism and medievalism too, and I made a setting that is not at all like that. And I know you have as well. But if other people find classic Tolkien-inspired fantasy to be appealing, why does it matter to you? Let everyone do what they want.

 

[EzekielRaiden]

So I feel pretty much the same way than you about tired Tolkien pastiches (though I love Tolkien,) but what I don't get why you care so much about what other people do. I was bored of tolkienism and medievalism too, and I made a setting that is not at all like that. And I know you have as well. But if other people find classic Tolkien-inspired fantasy to be appealing, why does it matter to you? Let everyone do what they want.

I desire a world filled with variety and cool, interesting things. I don't see how that's somehow such a horrible thing. Especially since, as I said, lots and lots and lots of people claim that their interest is the enormous potential that TTRPGs offer.

If the enormous potential is the draw, why aren't people actually using that potential?