D&D General Greyhawk Humanocentricism?

I desire a world filled with variety and cool, interesting things.
Interesting to whom?

I don't see how that's somehow such a horrible thing. Especially since, as I said, lots and lots and lots of people claim that their interest is the enormous potential that TTRPGs offer.

If the enormous potential is the draw, why aren't people actually using that potential?

A lot of people are not that creative. Besides, I think you overlook a huge amount of creativity that is there. You're basically obsesses about dragon people, so if they're not in, you're just dismissing the whole thing. There is plenty of creativity one can exhibit withing the parameters of "medieval setting with elves and dwarves."

I think you're failing to appreciate that this stuff is subjective, and taste-wise we're in the minority. And I'm fine with that.
 

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So I feel pretty much the same way than you about tired Tolkien pastiches (though I love Tolkien,) but what I don't get why you care so much about what other people do. I was bored of tolkienism and medievalism too, and I made a setting that is not at all like that. And I know you have as well. But if other people find classic Tolkien-inspired fantasy to be appealing, why does it matter to you? Let everyone do what they want.
Oh, sure. Whatever you want in your home game. Knock yourself out and I'll do the same.

But, whenever we start looking for something to buy - some a la carte setting option - it's hard to find stuff that isn't very traditional where each race/species has it's place and, while there might be a couple of exceptions, pretty much everywhere in that setting, every supplement for that setting, every module for that setting, follows that same traditional rut.

And, to top it off, if some writer wants to deviate from the formula and change something up in one of those settings, the canon police descend like big, heavy stone things and scream bloody murder. Thou Shalt NOT have Dragonborn in this setting. Heck, just getting a fairly cosmopolitan location that's made up of PHB races, never minding the weirder stuff, is practically impossible. I mean, good grief, the very first scene in Waterdeep Dragonheist the party is in the Yawning Portal, a place that should be very cosmopolitan, and this is the introduction to the scene:

Waterdeep Dragon Heist P 21 said:
You sit around a sturdy wooden table lit by a brightly burning candle and littered with plates cleard of food and half-drained tankards. The sounds of gamblers yelling and drunken adventurers singing bawdy songs nearly drown out the off-key strumming of a young bard three tables over.

Then all the noise is eclipsed by a shout: "Ya pig! Like killin' me mates, does ya?" Then a seven foot tall half orc is hit by a wild swinging punch from a male human whose shaved head is covered with eye-shaped tattoos. Four other humans stand behind him, ready to jump into the fray. The half-orc cracks her knuckles, roars, and leaps at hte tattooed figure - but before you can see if blood is drawn, a crowd of spectators clusters around the brawl. WHat do you do?

((Note, typos mine))

Again, five humans? These are Xanathar thugs. Very much zero reason why there'd be five of them. Then, after the dust settles, you meet with Volo (human), the seven "Yawning Portal Friendly Faces" NPC's that you can meet are six humans and a half-orc, and about the only actual non-PHB NPC in the place that's actually talked about is a bloody troll that crawls up through the floor.

For a "Cosmopolitan" center, it seems awfully human.
 

Interesting to whom?



A lot of people are not that creative. Besides, I think you overlook a huge amount of creativity that is there. You're basically obsesses about dragon people, so if they're not in, you're just dismissing the whole thing. There is plenty of creativity one can exhibit withing the parameters of "medieval setting with elves and dwarves."

I think you're failing to appreciate that this stuff is subjective, and taste-wise we're in the minority. And I'm fine with that.
And beyond the fact that many of us never grow bored of Tolkienian fantasy...the core audience for D&D are middle schoolers, for whom Tolkien is fresh and new.
 

And beyond the fact that many of us never grow bored of Tolkienian fantasy...the core audience for D&D are middle schoolers, for whom Tolkien is fresh and new.
I don't think Tolkien is particularly fresh or new to middle schoolers anymore. There's just FAR too much fantasy out there anymore, and far more easily accessible for Tolkien to even register anymore.

We read Tolkien as middle schoolers because there weren't really any alternatives at the time. There was just so little fantasy out there. But, between a shed load of TV, movies, video games, books and whatnot, I doubt that a middle schooler's formative fantasy will be Tolkien anymore.
 

No. I'm annoyed because basically everyone who ever speaks positively about D&D specifically, or TTRPGs in general, spouts off about how the thing that makes it special and different (and wonderful) is that you can do anything. The whole of human creative freedom is accessible to you.

And then they go and tread paths so well-worn, you can't see side to side anymore because a thousand previous settings have already trodden a ravine into it.

This bothers me a lot. Because it implies some kind of contradiction, and neither of the paths forward are good ones. On the one hand, it could be that people are simply mistaken and TTRPGs don't actually embrace the breadth of human creativity. On the other, it could be that there's a distressing quantity of disingenuous people who claim to want to see creativity and novelty and the unique things that can only happen because there's a real person behind it, but actually want to see pretty much exactly the same thing, every single time, forever.

It would be like 10% of all the people you meet telling you that the beauty of home cooking is that you can make whatever you want, and then the only things that anyone actually makes are cheeseburgers and fries. Not saying cheeseburgers and fries are bad, I love a good cheeseburger and it is quite possible to make them better or worse etc. But something is off between those two things.
Fair enough. I can certainly understand being mad about things I cannot change.
 

I don't think Tolkien is particularly fresh or new to middle schoolers anymore. There's just FAR too much fantasy out there anymore, and far more easily accessible for Tolkien to even register anymore.

We read Tolkien as middle schoolers because there weren't really any alternatives at the time. There was just so little fantasy out there. But, between a shed load of TV, movies, video games, books and whatnot, I doubt that a middle schooler's formative fantasy will be Tolkien anymore.
My direct experience of Gen Alpha kids, and Tolkien's ongoing sales numbers, suggests otherwise. The Hobbit and Lord of the Rings are no less popular now than when I read them in the 90s, probably more popular with young readers.

Heck, me reading them in the 90s was already a proof of Tolkien's enduring popularity.

And newer, hipper youth fantasy still trades in Tolkienian tropes, to boot.

But again, Tolkien is not a representative of humanocentric Fantasy, he was pushing the envelope in non-Human races, including talking walking trees, for goodness sake.
 
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Indeed, and it is wild that people think otherwise. It is thanks to Tolkien that we now commonly have non-humans in fantasy.
it's not like in six movies they come across a total of one and a half reclusive hobbit settlements, three isolated elf settlements (of whom are actively leaving the continent) two abandonded dwarf settlements and just how many human settlements?
 

it's not like in six movies they come across a total of one and a half reclusive hobbit settlements, three isolated elf settlements (of whom are actively leaving the continent) two abandonded dwarf settlements and just how many human settlements?
Like, three and a half? As opposed to four Elven places.

Human settlements:

  • 1/2 Bree
  • Rohan
  • Minas Tirith
  • Laketown

Elven settlements:

  • Rivendell
  • Lothlorien
  • Grey Havens
  • Mirkwood (which is a significant kingdom, at least)

Most of the Lord of the Rings and the Hobbit doesn't involve settlements at all, Middle Earth is a howling wilderness, Points of Light Setting.
 

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