D&D (2024) Do players really want balance?

[Micah Sweet]

Whether the rules cover something in the detail you want but I do not has nothing to do with "unbalance".

Perhaos I was being too glib, I apologize. There is definitely imbalance in the level of granularity for different parts of the rules. It has nothing to do with what you or I want.

 

[Xenolith234]

I wish and hope that is the case. Information fixes that.

Information, as well as the designers setting a lower baseline. I’d prefer to be able to raise or lower challenge per some variant rules, then have to twist and contort the current baseline to take it from super heroic fantasy to just heroic fantasy.

 

[Oofta]

By my meaning of exploration, I'd like varying survival and tracking mechanics, environmental conditions and hazards, different wilderness terrains and their effects, varying temperatures and their effects, weather, tables to make maps of different terrains. I don't think any of them would be wildly difficult to include and flesh out more than something like "disadvantage on XYZ". I don't think the default ranger will ever feel satisfying or balanced to play (no matter what changes WotC makes to it) and to satisfy the player expectation of what a ranger should do/be until exploration has more material around it for a DM to challenge the player with.

From what i understand, the designers don't think 5e is a game of attrition, which leaves me the wonder - what is it then? You try to reduce the characters' resources so that you can challenge them, but if you're not able to do that because the designers are fighting against it, then how can you possibly challenge them? That might be balanced in players' minds, but the DM is also a player, and one that doesn't seem to be valued. Though DMs are outnumbered, our opinion should weigh more heavily than just the equivalent of 1 player at best, which I don't think we're even valued that much.

So survival checks for tracking, exhaustion for conditions, potential damage (using the trap guidelines) for hazards. I'd suggest wikipedia for weather and what not, not sure what you need game rules for. I don't know where you think you can say what the designers do or do not think, all I can say is that I challenge people with wilderness encounters if I want. If WotC doesn't provide enough rules for you there's 3PP and plenty of options in the DmsGuild. I don't look to the official rules for everything I could possibly want.

 

[Xenolith234]

So survival checks for tracking, exhaustion for conditions, potential damage (using the trap guidelines) for hazards. I'd suggest wikipedia for weather and what not, not sure what you need game rules for. I don't know where you think you can say what the designers do or do not think, all I can say is that I challenge people with wilderness encounters if I want. If WotC doesn't provide enough rules for you there's 3PP and plenty of options in the DmsGuild. I don't look to the official rules for everything I could possibly want.

Crawford said as much here: x.com

What kind of terrain might I find in an adventure between locations? What penalties or ways to attack resources might I use beyond just spell slots, ever-climbing HP, and maybe exhaustion?I know there’s 3PP, but if the greater world of DMs isn’t terminally online talking about D&D, they may not even be aware of such a thing. Their game would be enriched by it being included in the default corebooks, and we’d all have a default resource to rely on.

 

[ezo]

Time for a "back to the dungeon" edition!

I don't know what edition you all are playing, but 5E is very much "in the dungeon" IME.

 

[Oofta]

I don’t think it’s purely a matter of challenging them in combat because we can always use stronger monsters (though default monsters are pretty dull to run), but that the sense of challenge is only merely temporary. Got knocked unconscious? Eh, you’re not dead yet. 1 point of healing and you’re right as rain (and it resets all of your dying-ness!). And challenging characters in other tiers not combat-related is mostly nonexistent.

Which has been the case in all versions of D&D. Every video game I've ever played that I can think of as well. Death spirals aren't fun, meanwhile it's easy to kill a PC if you really want. An attack on an unconscious character is automatically a crit, crits cause 2 failed death saves so double tap PCs and they're done.

 

[Oofta]

Why exactly is exploration too diverse a topic for which to have granular rules, but combat isn't? You don't think combat differs from one person to the next, or that it varies based on the situation?

I don't need or want rules for exploration, I need them for combat. If you want detailed rules they're out there so I don't see what the issue is. You keep insisting on bringing in outside rules to a 2024 D&D discussion but then pretend nothing outside of the official rules don't exist? Choose a lane.

 

[ezo]

I gotta ask, why are you folks having such a difficult time challenging the characters?

I'm running Shattered Obelisk right now, and I've seen some pretty skin of the teeth fights. Six Revenants, all immune to turn, 2 attacks per round at +7 dealing 6d6+4 damage per hit. How is that not beating the snot out of your 7th or 8th level party? Or, currently, one behir, which has, as of the end of the session, dropped two PC's down to single digit HP with it's breath weapon, and swallowed the barbarian. This is going to be one seriously rough fight.

I just don't get the whole "Oh, I cannot challenge the PC's, they're just too strong" thing. It utterly baffles me. Ramping up difficulty is just so easy.

Well, just from simple encounter calculations, a party of two 7th and two 8th level PCs against those encounters rank as Deadly and Hard.

So, sure if you are typically throwing such things at your PCs, the players are probably exhausted!

 

[Xenolith234]

Which has been the case in all versions of D&D. Every video game I've ever played that I can think of as well. Death spirals aren't fun, meanwhile it's easy to kill a PC if you really want. An attack on an unconscious character is automatically a crit, crits cause 2 failed death saves so double tap PCs and they're done.

They’re not fun. That’s kinda the point. Should death be fun? But if we attack a downed character, then we’re specifically going out of our way to be a jerk and will get flak for it. Maybe the fix is that “downed” characters aren’t actually on the floor, but still standing and fighting but making death saves. Then being hit during their last moments would explain how they’re being finished off.

There should be balance in all things, but when designers say things like “Your DM will hate this” and “Your DM can’t touch it”, it sets a tone and precedent for where their sense of balance lies.

 

[Micah Sweet]

Which has been the case in all versions of D&D. Every video game I've ever played that I can think of as well. Death spirals aren't fun, meanwhile it's easy to kill a PC if you really want. An attack on an unconscious character is automatically a crit, crits cause 2 failed death saves so double tap PCs and they're done.

For me the response to death spirals being a problem is to as a player do what I can to avoid being in one, not to simplify then out of the game. If my PC gets hurt I want that to matter.