D&D General Greyhawk Humanocentricism?

[Micah Sweet]

Were these communities lizard-like or reptilian-like creatures beforehand? How did the reptilian part of them come to be, is what I'm asking or has that not been established?
Just curious.

Dragonborn were made ages ago from lizardfolk stock by the dragons as servants. They rebelled and hid underground, forming their own city. The dragons responded by making kobolds to replace them, most of which still serve the dragons to this day.

Less than a century ago, a cataclysmic earthquake (the unintended side effect of a party of adventurers efforts to destroy an immortal aasimar necromancer) led to the destruction of the dragonborn's city, and they were forced to the surface. Assuming the humans, et al that lived there were responsible for their plight, the dragonborn launched a war that lasted several years until eventually a treaty ended it, giving the dragonborn land on the surface to build a new community. Tensions remain high, but they're trying to work it out, and some dragonborn have left their new home to explore the world.

This is all backstory for my setting, much of it inspired by the old Ultima series of computer games and the story of the gargoyle race.

 

[Parmandur]

Just to give an idea of juat how much room there is, consider the Burneal Forest, which is outside of any natuon and is the size of California:

The description from the Glossary mentions that there are unknown "savage" inhabitants who are "reported to be human" but leaves some doubt on thet subject given the conditions. If the tribal people here turned out to be Goliaths, at least in part...what is changed?

 

[AnotherGuy]

(Edit: forgot to respond to this part by itself)
The problem is that you have spoken of only two things: including, or not including. But there are at least three other options: excluding ("no, we will not ever add this and it emphatically is not part"), offering ("you could allow X, perhaps by <method Y>..."), and discouraging ("well, maybe you could have X...but we'll make it suck the entire time and hope you stop.")

Just saw your edit.
I liked the idea in some of the AP's I purchased where WotC offered locations/ideas for setting the AP on different D&D worlds, so I'm a fan of offering but funny enough I'm also a fan of excluding as it gives that setting a cute quirk.
It likely because I'm a forever DM, that if I get the chance to play (and the DM is committed), I can play anything, whatever the restrictions, and have fun. I also play with mates so my outlooked is maybe biased.

 

[TwoSix]

Just to give an idea of juat how much room there is, consider the Burneal Forest, which is outside of any natuon and is the size of California:

View attachment 383647

The description from the Glossary mentions that there are unknown "savage" inhabitants who are "reported to be human" but leaves some doubt on thet subject given the conditions. If the tribal people here turned out to be Goliaths, at least in part...what is changed?

View attachment 383646

Yea, that's crazy. Like you said, that's roughly 150K square miles and is about California size. You could fit 10 races, each tens of thousands strong, in that area with enough room for them to barely interact.

 

[Zeromaru X]

Sure. But this is a fraught example and comes dangerously close to trivialising real issues. Inclusion and representation of gay people and dragon people are not even remotely the same thing. You're not being oppressed if someone doesn't let you play a dragon person.

Actually... Most persons who love to play dragonborn are gay people in real life. In fact, the most popular dragonborn character in the D&D novels is a gay character (Mehen, from the Brimstone Angels novels). So, yes, there is a certain correlation.

 

[AdmundfortGeographer]

Just to give an idea of juat how much room there is, consider the Burneal Forest, which is outside of any natuon and is the size of California:

View attachment 383647

The description from the Glossary mentions that there are unknown "savage" inhabitants who are "reported to be human" but leaves some doubt on thet subject given the conditions. If the tribal people here turned out to be Goliaths, at least in part...what is changed?

In my head canon, the qullan and goliaths are the same species, but the qullan are a tribe that were cursed by the Egg of Coot and under its mysterious influence.

 

[Snarf Zagyg]

Yea, that's crazy. Like you said, that's roughly 150K square miles and is about California size. You could fit 10 races, each tens of thousands strong, in that area with enough room for them to barely interact.

This, of course, brings up the Greyhawk population debate.

If you look at the actual size of the Flanaess, and then look at the population numbers in the Folio and Boxed Set, you immediately start feeling queasy ... and you realize why this can be a points of light setting.

Each hex is 30 miles, or almost 800 square smiles.

I am going to crib from an excellent post by Chris Kutalik (Hill Cantons) where he did the math for Veluna. That should be a pretty populous country, right?

Well, the math shows that there are 4.89 humans or demi-humans per square mile.

That's right. It means that in a "settled" and "civilized" area ... you have a lower population density than Mongolia.

The size of Greyhawk, and the population, means that there is a lot of emptiness waiting to be filled.....

 

[Emerikol]

Actually... Most persons who love to play dragonborn are gay people in real life. In fact, the most popular dragonborn character in the D&D novels is a gay character (Mehen, from the Brimstone Angels novels). So, yes, there is a certain correlation.

I mean if the DM is not allowing dragonborn for that very reason then sure but if as is more likely they are not for another reason then that seems okay to me.

 

[Crimson Longinus]

Actually... Most persons who love to play dragonborn are gay people in real life.

This seems exceedingly unlikely to me.

In fact, the most popular dragonborn character in the D&D novels is a gay character (Mehen, from the Brimstone Angels novels). So, yes, there is a certain correlation.

Perhaps there could be some minor correlation. I doubt this has anything to do with why DB are generally included in, or excluded from settings.

 

[TwoSix]

This, of course, brings up the Greyhawk population debate.

If you look at the actual size of the Flanaess, and then look at the population numbers in the Folio and Boxed Set, you immediately start feeling queasy ... and you realize why this can be a points of light setting.

Each hex is 30 miles, or almost 800 square smiles.

I am going to crib from an excellent post by Chris Kutalik (Hill Cantons) where he did the math for Veluna. That should be a pretty populous country, right?

Well, the math shows that there are 4.89 humans or demi-humans per square mile.

That's right. It means that in a "settled" and "civilized" area ... you have a lower population density than Mongolia.

The size of Greyhawk, and the population, means that there is a lot of emptiness waiting to be filled.....

I remember Eberron having very similar issues, with Khorvaire being about as densely populated as Siberia. (I remember because I very vociferously argued that the numbers in the book were really problematic. )

It generally just shows that people who write game books aren't expert demographers.