D&D (2024) Thief Rogue / True Strike

[James Gasik]

I just had this amusing attempt at rules lawyering by a player pop into my head...

"Ok, so, it says that when casting a spell with a casting time greater than one action, you have to take the Magic Action each turn."

"Uh, huh..." says the DM, not sure where this is going.

"And naturally, using a magic item uses the Magic Action, right, I mean, that's what it's for!"

"Well...that's subject to debate, I mean, you throw a bead of force or a bead from a necklace of missiles, I don't think..."

"Anyways, that means if I'm using a magic item that takes a really long time to use, I'm using multiple Magic Actions, right?" The player starts to grin.

"Uh, I guess? I mean it kind of depends..." The DM starts cursing WotC in his mind.

"Great, so I pull out that Manual of Gainful Exercise we found and read it in it's entirety with a bonus action using my Fast Hands ability!"

"Arrgh, NO!" says the DM.

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While I don't have any problem with a multiclassed Thief using a Scroll with Fast Hands, and I think having different types of Magic Actions (as some have postulated) or magic items that don't use Magic Actions to activate seems heedlessly confusing...it's obvious that there are going to be cases where Fast Hands can't be allowed to just work with regards to "using" a magic item without stuff breaking (even if using a Scroll of True Strike probably isn't one of them).

 

[billd91]

A scroll is not just an instruction manual. It is a magical item imbued with power, that is consumed in the act of unleashing that power. That is much more than just "reading" it. You are using it - in fact, you are using it up.

And that's the crux of this matter, ultimately. Is using the magic action to cast the spell on the scroll using the scroll? And if it isn't... that's making a very fine line distinction. It's already causing controversy here, there will definitely be a hodgepodge of different uses in the wild at D&D tables.

 

[Retros_x]

Yeah, and thematically it just doesn't make any sense which is where we can best make our decision.

A thief rogue being able to cast Vicious Mockery faster because their hands are fast is nonsensical.

The thing that costs time is the casting of the spell not the manipulation of the item.

That for me is the main reason I think RAI is NOT to have this combo work. Its clearly meant for magic items only, faster activations that are done with your fingers. Casting a spell should not be faster by it.

But even if a DM allows it, its not a super strong combo IMO. I usually don't even have cantrip spell scrolls in my campaign rewards.

 

[mellored]

I skipped a bunch of pages, but...

You make the attack with the weapon used to make the scroll.

So what happens if you don't have that weapon?
If you left it on a kitchen counter?
If the storm druid is holding the longbow 50' in the air?
If you throw your dagger and then ready a Truestrike with it next turn?
If you bought the scroll from a shop and have no idea what weapon it was crafted with?

 

[MarkB]

I skipped a bunch of pages, but...

You make the attack with the weapon used to make the scroll.

Where did you get that from? You use a weapon as the focus when casting true strike, but you don't use any kind of focus when scribing spell scrolls.

 

[mellored]

Where did you get that from? You use a weapon as the focus when casting true strike, but you don't use any kind of focus when scribing spell scrolls.

https://www.dndbeyond.com/sources/dnd/free-rules/equipment#CraftingEquipment

"To scribe a scroll, you must have proficiency in the Arcana skill or with Calligrapher’s Supplies and have the spell prepared on each day of the inscription. You must also have at hand any Material components required by the spell"

"you can read the scroll and cast the spell using its normal casting time and without providing any Material components."

Material component is needed to create a scroll, not cast.

Which is very odd for Truestrike.

Unless the book says something different? (I still don't have it).

 

[Gorck]

https://www.dndbeyond.com/sources/dnd/free-rules/equipment#CraftingEquipment

"To scribe a scroll, you must have proficiency in the Arcana skill or with Calligrapher’s Supplies and have the spell prepared on each day of the inscription. You must also have at hand any Material components required by the spell"

This is the same as in the book.

"you can read the scroll and cast the spell using its normal casting time and without providing any Material components."

In the book, this part instead says:

"if the spell consumes its Material components, they are consumed only when you complete the scroll. The scroll’s spell uses your spell save DC and spell attack bonus."

 

[MarkB]

https://www.dndbeyond.com/sources/dnd/free-rules/equipment#CraftingEquipment

"To scribe a scroll, you must have proficiency in the Arcana skill or with Calligrapher’s Supplies and have the spell prepared on each day of the inscription. You must also have at hand any Material components required by the spell"

"you can read the scroll and cast the spell using its normal casting time and without providing any Material components."

Material component is needed to create a scroll, not cast.

Which is very odd for Truestrike.

Unless the book says something different? (I still don't have it).

Heh, that is weird. I was thinking the spell considered the weapon to be used as a focus, but you're right, it is listed as a material component.

Yeah, that works very oddly for true strike. Also for shillelagh. I wonder how many other spells there are which require their material component to be actively used when/after the spell is cast.

 

[abirdcall]

That for me is the main reason I think RAI is NOT to have this combo work. Its clearly meant for magic items only, faster activations that are done with your fingers. Casting a spell should not be faster by it.

But even if a DM allows it, its not a super strong combo IMO. I usually don't even have cantrip spell scrolls in my campaign rewards.

They are very cheap to craft now so by default will be readily available.

Moreso there will be magic items that will enhance casting of spells so you could cast the spell and then also sneak attack. We will have to see about the items but currently those are limited to 'spellcasters' which just takes magic initiate.

And ultimately whether it is unbalanced or not isn't my primary concern. I care most about whether it makes sense in the fiction and secondly about the approach everyone is taking towards the game. I will not play with rules lawyers and a player wanting to do this would be a red flag (after I clarified the difference between activating an item and casting a spell).

 

[mellored]

This is the same as in the book.

In the book, this part instead says:

"if the spell consumes its Material components, they are consumed only when you complete the scroll. The scroll’s spell uses your spell save DC and spell attack bonus."

That's in the free rules as well. But I didn't quote it because it doesn't apply.

You just don't get a discount when buying scrolls of Force Cage.

Heh, that is weird. I was thinking the spell considered the weapon to be used as a focus, but you're right, it is listed as a material component.

Yeah, that works very oddly for true strike. Also for shillelagh. I wonder how many other spells there are which require their material component to be actively used when/after the spell is cast.

Shillelagh is fine. It just does nothing if you don't have the same weapon. No different from casting it and handing the club to someone else.

Just make sure you sell the scroll with the attached club.

But Truestrike says "you make one attack with the weapon"..
So what if the weapon is 30' from you, because you just threw the dagger, or gave it to a familiar who got eaten by a Terrasque?
Do you somehow still attack from your space or the weapons space?