D&D (2024) Uncommon items - actually common?

[TwoSix]

The value in the books is not necessarily the value in the fiction. The value given in the DMG is more or less a multiversal inherent value. A base that is modified by setting, subjective values, economic pressures, etc. So if you need a 5000gp diamond, the typical diamond from the DMG will do, even if the people of the setting hate them and they are found like sand on the beach and they sell them for 1sp. The magic only cares about that book value, not the value modified by other fiction influences.

I'm not saying I agree or disagree, but "value" being a multiversal constant that's an inherent, discoverable property within materials has fascinating worldbuilding considerations. Pretty much the ideal of my scenario 2 from post #433.

 

[TwoSix]

I'd lean toward the first solution, but I understand the second one will be the majority. I rationalize in my settings (which have magic universities and students and a rather mechanistic approach) that spells are formula that are designed to produce the result intended, and people discovered a magical mean to sacrifice a ruby to make a continual flame, and so that's a formula. There is also a formula for making continual flame by doing human sacrifice but it's not taught for obvious reasons, and a formula for sacrificing 3,750 kg of flour, but it is less used for practical reasons. A formula for sacricing sheeps is certainly possible, but would require further research. It's also probable that there is a formula that works with only 47gp of ground ruby, but requires you to chant for three hours standing on your left foot. Few adventurers bother with it.

For sure. Discovering alternate material costs (or simply understanding the symbolic content behind the spell) seems like a natural outgrowth of research in the first scenario.

 

[Maxperson]

I'm not saying I agree or disagree, but "value" being a multiversal constant that's an inherent, discoverable property within materials has fascinating worldbuilding considerations. Pretty much the ideal of my scenario 2 from post #433.

I default to #2 of course. Otherwise I could just make a PC who loves gems so much that even the smallest chip is worth 5000gp to him and cheaply cast all the spells with expensive gem components. That seems like it wouldn't be something the game would be designed to allow.

 

[TwoSix]

I default to #2 of course. Otherwise I could just make a PC who loves gems so much that even the smallest chip is worth 5000gp to him and cheaply cast all the spells with expensive gem components. That seems like it wouldn't be something the game would be designed to allow.

Yea, the idea of abusing "value" by simply having my friend pay me 5000 gp for a tiny diamond is definitely a scenario I've considered.

 

[tetrasodium]

So where do people fall between these two positions?

1) Spells with components operate under emotional and symbolic constraints. The diamonds are meant to represent a non-trivial sacrifice on behalf of the caster; if diamonds somehow became cheap and common, the spell would no longer function without a relative wagonload of diamonds.

2) Spells with components operate under mechanistic constraints. The spell needs diamonds to act as fuel under the impersonal rules governing magic; if someone finds a treasure trove of diamonds or a portal to the Elemental Plane of Diamonds(tm), then revivify and raise dead will become cheap and accessible.

It's already been said, but it doesn't matter because the game itself doesn't fit either mechanically. The fact that most costly spell components are not consumed during casting causes problems for both & that just gets worse when you look at some common components where one spell consumes it while another just uses it as a pointless & forgettable checkbox.

Yea, the idea of abusing "value" by simply having my friend pay me 5000 gp for a tiny diamond is definitely a scenario I've considered.

Not sure the gp count it was but.... I've seen it happen while running AL back when AL players still got treasure.

 

[Jfdlsjfd]

I'm not saying I agree or disagree, but "value" being a multiversal constant that's an inherent, discoverable property within materials has fascinating worldbuilding considerations. Pretty much the ideal of my scenario 2 from post #433.

Yep. Since it's not a "market value", the name value is certainly better replace by rubiosity, and an in-universe unit is certainly being devised by researchers.

For sure. Discovering alternate material costs (or simply understanding the symbolic content behind the spell) seems like a natural outgrowth of research in the first scenario.

Sure. I have already told about players encountering worse version of spells than the one in the book (higher spell slot for the same effect, drawbacks and so on) over the course of their adventures. They also a few times devised a BETTER version of one and it was an adventure in itself (non combat, I don't want to imbalance things even more) and, even if there is no rule for that, a totally new effect when they were level 15+ (if Bigby designed and named his hand line of spells, why not the PCs). A more efficient continual light would be an achievement for magical universities.

 

[Micah Sweet]

The value in the books is not necessarily the value in the fiction. The value given in the DMG is more or less a multiversal inherent value. A base that is modified by setting, subjective values, economic pressures, etc. So if you need a 5000gp diamond, the typical diamond from the DMG will do, even if the people of the setting hate them and they are found like sand on the beach and they sell them for 1sp. The magic only cares about that book value, not the value modified by other fiction influences.

The dust from that 5000gp diamond will also be 5000gp worth of diamond dust, regardless of what the locals will pay or sell it for.

It the diamond is say half the typical size, then the diamond and dust will be worth 2500gp for spell purposes.

See my above response. Hopefully that clarifies your questions. If not, ask more questions and I will try to explain.

None of that makes any sense in the context of the setting the characters actually live and adventure in.

 

[Maxperson]

Yea, the idea of abusing "value" by simply having my friend pay me 5000 gp for a tiny diamond is definitely a scenario I've considered.

On the flip side, I can envision a setting where emotional value is what determines the component for every spell. A chaste and moral wizard might need tears of a virgin as the component for Charm Person, where a lecherous individual might need a coin from a brothel to cast Charm Person. Each spell would need to be researched and the proper personal component would need to be discovered.

That would mean that scrolls which have the magic imparted by the inscriber would be usable by any wizard as a scroll, but not so much for putting in a spellbook. Research would have to be done on each spell, but since that would be cumbersome, some new rules to make it a bit quicker than a long quest or lengthy project would have to be enacted. It could be a very fun way to play magic.

 

[Maxperson]

None of that makes any sense in the context of the setting the characters actually live and adventure in.

It actually all makes sense if you sit and contemplate it. You may not agree with it, but it absolutely makes sense as I've laid it out.

 

[Micah Sweet]

I'd lean toward the first solution, but I understand the second one will be the majority. I rationalize in my settings (which have magic universities and students and a rather mechanistic approach) that spells are formula that are designed to produce the result intended, and people discovered a magical mean to sacrifice a ruby to make a continual flame, and so that's a formula. There is also a formula for making continual flame by doing human sacrifice but it's not taught for obvious reasons, and a formula for sacrificing 3,750 kg of flour, but it is less used for practical reasons. A formula for sacricing sheeps is certainly possible, but would require further research. It's also probable that there is a formula that works with only 47gp of ground ruby, but requires you to chant for three hours standing on your left foot. Few adventurers bother with it.

That is some awesome worldbuilding there!