D&D General The Human Side of D&D History - From Gary Gygax to Temple of Elemental Evil

[Vaalingrade]

Correct. You just falsely attributed(created a position that doesn't exist) to me some sort of defense of "product of his time" which I never did. You did so when you told me that I could stop defending in order to stop being called a liar and/or stop being accused of things I didn't do. So it's also ironic that you falsely attributed an argument to me in order for me to stop being accused of things I didn't do.

Is... this a parody?

Did you or did you not try to argue that Gygax was a product of his time?

Did you or did you not try to defend making that argument?

Don't try to shift that to accusing you to sexism. Don't try to conjure things I didn't say. just yes or no to those two questions.

You can declare it so, but your declaration isn't fact. Why are you against understanding someone better so that you might better judge that person?

'Better judge'?

So find an excuse for their behavior. But I thought you weren't doing that? That to suggest that was to invoke a Philosophy 101 term as if it were a winning trump card in an argument.

 

[Umbran]

@mamba and @Maxperson

Ask yourselves if your mode of confrontation at this point is actually constructive, please. Because it sure doesn't look it from outside, and if it becomes any less constructive, it probably becomes actionable.

 

[mamba]

What is wrong with only having a high school degree?

nothing, but living off food stamps and considering yourself amongst the elite despite that is

 

[TiQuinn]

If he was still earning money and working towards a goal that eventually put food on the table and roof over their heads, I don't see why this, and the lack of a college education in particular, should impugn him or any claim he may have made to being smart (I am not a fan of the elite attitude expressed in his quote but I don't think holding only a high school degree precludes someone from making such a claim). Also this was a time when you could work a blue collar job and be middle class. heck I know lots of people who have blue collar jobs today who are solidly middle class. I guess I just don't get why being a cobbler or not having a degree presents any issue here to what he said

I think the When We Were Wizards podcast laid out the problems the family was having at that time, and the Gygaxes were undergoing a number of financial struggles that forced them to move to Lake Geneva from Chicago. I think the entire picture is necessary rather than just an individual quote about lacking a college education. For instance, Gygax was so consumed with his war gaming hobby, it was directly interfering with his insurance job at the time, and led to his firing and inability to get another job, possibly due to poor references. The cobbler job was borne out of necessity, not because he had wanted that job, and he didn’t seem to have much talent for it either. The Gygaxes were essentially living at a poverty level before D&D caught on, largely due to Gary’s poor work ethic.

 

[Steampunkette]

I don't know if you were referring to me there, but I didn't do that. At least not in that context.

Really? That's not what you were doing here?

Sure, but he wasn't nearly as sexist as many, many others. Countless are the tales of bosses demanding sexual favors to get/keep jobs, grabbing rears, fondling women, leering, harassing women verbally in the workplace, and more. Gary's comments, even the one doubling down against women's lib, don't rise anywhere close to those commonplace occurrences in 1970s workplaces.

'Cause that looks like you are EXPLICITLY COMPARING Gygax's actions to the actions of other sexists in the 70s and saying "It's not as bad as what other people were doing", which inherently downplays Gygax's sexism by raising the bar on what constitutes sexism based on other people's actions.

"Sure he was sexist to the degree we're talking about, but that's not REALLY that sexist compared to other examples of sexism!"

That's why I keep telling folk to read to understand, not to respond. Folks reading to respond keep jumping to that conclusion, but they wouldn't if they bothered to try and understand what I wrote.

I'm not certain there is a different interpretation to what you wrote, Max. You explicitly compared Gygax's sexism to more egregious sexism in order to present him as being less sexist than his time.

And then there's this part:

Moderation, and that doesn't mean ignoring the sexism, but rather understanding everything and giving the appropriate response, keeps the pendulum closer to the middle so it doesn't swing as far or possibly at all.

Where you allude to an "Appropriate Response" where the pendulum doesn't swing "As far" or "Possibly at all"

Where, in context, it looks like you're talking about the Pendulum being accusations of Sexism, and how we shouldn't say he was sexist to any significant degree because in the context of other people being MORE sexist than he was: he barely swings the pendulum.

This very much reads specifically as a method to minimize his sexism through comparison to other people. And if it's not that, then I fear you haven't explained your position well at all.

 

[Clint_L]

The Gygaxes were essentially living at a poverty level before D&D caught on, largely due to Gary’s poor work ethic.

Was it a poor work ethic, per se? To me, it feels like a hard-working person who was putting all of his energy into his passion rather than his day job - much like an screenwriter working in a restaurant or something, but the midwest, frustrated wargamer version of it. Arneson I would definitely accuse of a poor work ethic, but not Gygax.

 

[Steampunkette]

Was it a poor work ethic, per se? To me, it feels like a hard-working person who was putting all of his energy into his passion rather than his day job - much like an screenwriter working in a restaurant or something, but the midwest, frustrated warmer version of it. Arneson I would definitely accuse of a poor work ethic, but not Gygax.

If someone put all their effort into WoW Raiding while their family struggled to make ends meet would you say they have a strong work ethic and are just putting all their effort into Raid Team membership?

'Cause that's basically what he was doing when he lost his job and threw himself entirely into wargaming.

Yes, it later morphed into Chainmail and eventually D&D, which is great, don't get me wrong, but I wouldn't say he had a strong "Work Ethic" if he was playing in his basement all the time and not working a job to support himself and his family.

That said, Work Ethic is a bad concept based in a society which focuses on extracting maximum value from the working cla- and now the thread is locked...

(Kidding, but I do hate the narrative of "Work Ethic" as a concept)

 

[Maxperson]

Really? That's not what you were doing here?

'Cause that looks like you are EXPLICITLY COMPARING Gygax's actions to the actions of other sexists in the 70s and saying "It's not as bad as what other people were doing", which inherently downplays Gygax's sexism by raising the bar on what constitutes sexism based on other people's actions.

"Sure he was sexist to the degree we're talking about, but that's not REALLY that sexist compared to other examples of sexism!"

I'm not certain there is a different interpretation to what you wrote, Max. You explicitly compared Gygax's sexism to more egregious sexism in order to present him as being less sexist than his time.

And then there's this part:

Where you allude to an "Appropriate Response" where the pendulum doesn't swing "As far" or "Possibly at all"

Where, in context, it looks like you're talking about the Pendulum being accusations of Sexism, and how we shouldn't say he was sexist to any significant degree because in the context of other people being MORE sexist than he was: he barely swings the pendulum.

This very much reads specifically as a method to minimize his sexism through comparison to other people. And if it's not that, then I fear you haven't explained your position well at all.

So the order of things.

I made the argument in the other thread about needing to understand Gygax in part via his being a product of his time. I never mentioned whether he was better or worse than others with his sexism. Not until YOU and some others tried to tell me that he was worse than most of the others of his time period because of a few people in colleges and/or feminists called him and others out. That necessitated my pointing out that he in fact wasn't worse than most and why. That necessity carried over into this thread.

What you did was take the order of things out of context and merge those two different parts of my arguments here to make it sound a way that I didn't use it.

As for "appropriate response," not all sexism should be responded to equally. Like any bad behavior, there are degrees and without understanding the person outside of the sexist acts, you will almost surely get the response wrong, reacting either too harshly or not harshly enough. My arguments about understanding and an appropriate level of response don't equate to an argument to lighten your(general you) reaction to Gygax's sexism. In some cases people who bother to understand will increase their reaction, not lessen it.

Lastly, I never said he barely swung the pendulum, or even swung the pendulum at all. My thoughts about the pendulum were about the reactions to it on both sides.

 

[Bedrockgames]

nothing, but living off food stamps and considering yourself amongst the elite despite that is

I would ask the same question here. I am sure there are many geniuses who have lived on food stamps, and people can still have dignity and strong sense of self worth while living on food stamps. I do think the attitude of gamers that we sometimes have of ourselves being elites, can itself be an issue. I just don't see why any of the circumstances of his life should be a knock against him holding this attitude

 

[Bedrockgames]

I think the When We Were Wizards podcast laid out the problems the family was having at that time, and the Gygaxes were undergoing a number of financial struggles that forced them to move to Lake Geneva from Chicago. I think the entire picture is necessary rather than just an individual quote about lacking a college education. For instance, Gygax was so consumed with his war gaming hobby, it was directly interfering with his insurance job at the time, and led to his firing and inability to get another job, possibly due to poor references. The cobbler job was borne out of necessity, not because he had wanted that job, and he didn’t seem to have much talent for it either. The Gygaxes were essentially living at a poverty level before D&D caught on, largely due to Gary’s poor work ethic.

Again though, what is wrong with someone putting their energy into this kind of goal, suffering some setbacks and working through them, and then achieving the goal. Lots of people struggle financially for all kinds of reasons, and it is pretty laudable I think to fall on hard times, take a difficult job you don't have much experience with to put food on the table, and still work on something you believe in. To @Clint_L 's point, where is the poor work ethic here? And are we really going to judge people on their work ethic? We are talking about a creative field. Creative fields are littered with people who made contributions but had terrible work ethics or got sidetracked by a passion.