D&D General “‘Scantily Clad and Well Proportioned’: Sexism and Gender Stereotyping in the Gaming Worlds of TSR and Dungeons & Dragons.”

[Steampunkette]

*I wrote "shown" here, since this thread is about visual art. But it also applies to song lyrics, television roles, written works of fiction and nonfiction, and other art forms.

It definitely does apply to nonvisual art.

But the thread IS NOT ABOUT THE ART.

The Art is just one specific aspect among a group of different factors that result in the homosocial atmosphere that was initially very exclusive of women and has gotten better over time, but still has some room for improvement.

 

[mamba]

Going back to sexism and we have to also look at the circumstances around the act.

there is no self-defense sexism

 

[CleverNickName]

It definitely does apply to nonvisual art.

But the thread IS NOT ABOUT THE ART.

The Art is just one specific aspect among a group of different factors that result in the homosocial atmosphere that was initially very exclusive of women and has gotten better over time, but still has some room for improvement.

Woops, you are absolutely right. I've revised my previous post.

 

[FrogReaver]

It's not hard to parse these things. You don't need to be an art critic or a sociologist here. Just look* at the characters in a piece of art, and notice how they are being portrayed.

Is one figure shown in a position of power, dominance, or authority over another? Is one figure shown in a demeaning, humiliated, or reduced position?

If the answer to either question is "yes," ask why. What was the creator's intent? What message is being communicated?

That's how you suss out the "conclusion" you're "supposed to make."

-----

*I wrote "look" here, since this thread is about visual art. But it also applies to song lyrics, television roles, written works of fiction and nonfiction, and other art forms.

Thank you for actually answering the question. I’d normally have some follow-ups questions, but asking questions might be construed as sea-lioning, so I’m going to refrain.

 

[tetrasodium]

I’m not sure what you mean by “time policing”. I know what a limbo competition is but have no idea what that means in this context.

What I am doing is asking for clarity which I’m not getting from your posts.

Tone policing

Inclusive Language Series: Tone Policing

Many people are unaware of tone policing and may not recognize how it can be expressed. So, what is tone policing? According to the Oxford Dictionary, tone policing is “the action or practice of criticizing …

www.housing.wisc.edu

See the bold bit of the post you are tone policing over the term white knighting.

At what point does this white knighting result in a a complete ban on humanoid artwork by restricting too sexy too fat t& too everything else? At some point long before that it's worth questioning if the respective inclusivity review bars for male artwork and female artwork looks like early and late stage limbo competition positioning.

Chris Hemsworth Says He Isn't Taken Seriously as an Actor Because of His Muscles

Chris Hemsworth said that he's not taken as seriously as an actor because of the muscle-building he has to do for his role in Thor

people.com

https://www.justjared.com/2017/10/30/chris-hemsworth-doesnt-mind-being-exploited-with-shirtless-scenes/

Do we extend the filter criteria to extend across body type like twink daddy chub & others like leatherdaddies lumbersexual too? I know that I've seen all of those and more in 5e books... might be worth accepting that it's ok for folks questioning the ttrpg equipment of measuring skirt length when the male equivalent is not even under white knight consideration.

 

[tetrasodium]

Mostly I find this to be an example of DARVO via a Slippery Slope fallacy.

I disagree and I'm going to reference a post in one of these recent threads for evidence where someone posted a comic of Batman drawn as a twink explicitly calling out in the comic that the female character finds it appealing while the male finds it uncomfortable. I believe it was even a post you made but could be wrong on that. If you can't question if the censorship is being applied evenly without being accused of slippery slope... That's probably an indication that it's a safe bet the answer is "no it's not"

You're suggesting that making changes automatically means doing lots of harm to various other groups and requires strict enforcement of standards that are, themselves, biased and potentially onerous as a way to deflect and deny the criticism that justly exists.

And that making any positive change means we must immediately go allllll the way to the extreme, as well. Again, to try and frame any attempt toward making things better as a greater evil than leaving things as they are.

It's a pointless and ultimately self-defeating handwringing meant to excuse the problems that exist by fantasizing about far greater problems that could possibly exist if any effort is made.

If it was actually about concern over "doing lots of harm"then simply asking if the bar for inclusivity review had inappropriately differing standards based on something like if it's a male or female who is being reviewed, This inappropriately different setting of bars is almost certainly why Frostmaiden has an adventure where someone's husband asks the players to go rescue his husband★ and I can't even think of a 5e adventure where the players are asked to rescue someone's wife or daughter. I

Please stop.

Indeed. Chris Hemsworth & batman or any male NPC as a sex object or victim? A-OK & beyond even questioning. You've moved past inclusivity to an unquestionable crusade, please stop.

★Do I care that it was a gay couple? No, not at all & it was a gay guy at the table who said "wait what?! this NPC was a guy, did I misunderstand something that badly? did you just say husband?" when I first saw that adventure. What I care about is the tokenism almost ten years into an edition where overly zealous inclusivity review standards have even resulted in entire settings shelved as "problematic"

 

[Maxperson]

there is no self-defense sexism

Sure there is. As I said, sexist behavior from actors who engage in it because of the script and with women who are okay with it due to script is sexism that is not bad, and therefore equivalent to self-defense.

Or if you like, remove both self-defense in the killing example and the acting portion of the sexism example and you know, actually engage the point of my post instead of dodging it like this.

 

[Gradine]

Experimenting with uncontrolled libido of rampaging orcs and evil guards is not the setting tourism I'd say this community explores.

Yeah, I would love to agree with this sentiment, but there's a whole lot of posts in this thread that I've set to ignore of folks that I'd imagine would disagree.

It is a thing...

But part of it is also that I have several people blocked who have often weighed in on such topics ad nauseum with endless deflections of sexism or outright sexist insults or continuous sea-lioning "But what if?" just asking questions, etc...

Those people exist. But because I have them blocked they're arguing less, if at all, since they can't see most of what's happening in the thread.

Also several of them got banned in other threads on the topic so, y'know. The community is also cleaning itself up.

Yes, this is the issue. And they are still arguing in here, because I see replies to their posts, which seems wild to me that anyone would still waste their time like that here when they've proven time and time again that they have no interest in entertaining ideas and topics around inclusivity, in spite of this forum's rather explicit values to the contrary.

 

[Steampunkette]

Tone policing

Inclusive Language Series: Tone Policing

Many people are unaware of tone policing and may not recognize how it can be expressed. So, what is tone policing? According to the Oxford Dictionary, tone policing is “the action or practice of criticizing …

www.housing.wisc.edu

See the bold bit of the post you are tone policing over the term white knighting.

Pointing out that the phrase "White Knight" is by it's nature a derogatory phrase is not tone policing.

Tone policing involves a marginalized group advocating for themselves in a manner that the majority considers inappropriate and demands the marginalized group change how they present their advocacy in a manner the majority approves of.

You are not advocating for a marginalized group when you accuse people of "White Knighting".

 

[AnotherGuy]

But yeah. I love the idea of dwarves being -constantly- overstimulated by human environments and understimulated by the foods so they prefer the foods they're used to from home and oh crap I just accidentally made dwarves into autistic caricatures.

... damn it.

I'm going to attempt to take a stab at this side commentary in this thread of white knighting by using this post to hopefully illustrate where @tetrasodium and Greylord may be coming from.

Your post sharing ideas of the races was great IMO. I and many others saw absolutely no issue with it. It was inspiring. It is the one of the primary reasons for me liking Enworld.
Then your above post reflects on a supposed issue with your dwarf write-up which I doubt anyone observed. It seems a bit of an overkill. It is like we are looking for issues to nitpick and for some this may be perceived as white knighting as we keep lowering the limbo bar so to speak.