D&D General How Often Should a PC Die in D&D 5e?

[Crimson Longinus]

Let me say these answers have been interesting and insightful. They also are making me wonder... what exactly is meant when people claim 5e isn't lethal enough or is easy mode...

It is not really that I want characters to die, but I want there to be a genuine feel of peril sometimes, and to get that you need to exceed the encounter building guidelines to ludicrous degree. Fights that are just risk free baby seal clubbing are not really fun to anyone.

(I know that they changed the encounter building math in 5.5, but I haven't tried that yet.)

 

[ezo]

Let me say these answers have been interesting and insightful. They also are making me wonder... what exactly is meant when people claim 5e isn't lethal enough or is easy mode...

• Overnight full healing
• Encounter design with "easy and medium" levels. The standard 6-8 encounter per adventuring day is based on the premise these are medium or hard encounter
• (related to the last) Encounter design not based on the game world narrative concerning difficulty
• Bloated ability modifiers (thanks for that one 3E...) making attacks and defense better for PCs (65% hit rate instead of 35-40%).
• The made saves worse in some ways, as the numbers dont' get "as good" as in AD&D, but repeated saves is so easy mode
• The above "countered" by bloated HP but yet damage not keeping up with it.
• Higher hit dice for Wizards (magic-users) and Rogues (thieves)
• No save or die effect
• No level draining
• 3rd level revivify spell to keep PCs from death in combat 9 times out of 10
• No chance of revival or raise failure
• Fast level progression through tier 1 to increase survival chances
• Over-abundance of features to make attacks magical, basically nullifying resistance to non-magic attacks
• Those resistances to non-magic attacks being resistance instead of immunity
• Ease of access to wizard spells, no chance of spell failure or having to find desired spells or research them
• Additional action economy via bonus actions and reactions, effectively allowing PCs to do two or three things in a round instead of just one thing
• and so on...

Now, every one of these can of course be house-ruled or challenged by a DM who wants to keep the game more lethal (such as myself), but RAW by design the game is just less lethal and in easy mode if you run it as intended (6-8 encounters of medium to hard per adventuring day, for example).

Finally, as I have posted in other threads, there is the "shift" towards character-driven stories, which makes it so groups feel like the PC is the hero and shouldn't die--because the hero can't die! What kind of story is that!?

 

[payn]

Finally, as I have posted in other threads, there is the "shift" towards character-driven stories, which makes it so groups feel like the PC is the hero and shouldn't die--because the hero can't die! What kind of story is that!?

 

[DarkCrisis]

• Overnight full healing
• Encounter design with "easy and medium" levels. The standard 6-8 encounter per adventuring day is based on the premise these are medium or hard encounter
• (related to the last) Encounter design not based on the game world narrative concerning difficulty
• Bloated ability modifiers (thanks for that one 3E...) making attacks and defense better for PCs (65% hit rate instead of 35-40%).
• The made saves worse in some ways, as the numbers dont' get "as good" as in AD&D, but repeated saves is so easy mode
• The above "countered" by bloated HP but yet damage not keeping up with it.
• Higher hit dice for Wizards (magic-users) and Rogues (thieves)
• No save or die effect
• No level draining
• 3rd level revivify spell to keep PCs from death in combat 9 times out of 10
• No chance of revival or raise failure
• Fast level progression through tier 1 to increase survival chances
• Over-abundance of features to make attacks magical, basically nullifying resistance to non-magic attacks
• Those resistances to non-magic attacks being resistance instead of immunity
• Ease of access to wizard spells, no chance of spell failure or having to find desired spells or research them
• Additional action economy via bonus actions and reactions, effectively allowing PCs to do two or three things in a round instead of just one thing
• and so on...

Now, every one of these can of course be house-ruled or challenged by a DM who wants to keep the game more lethal (such as myself), but RAW by design the game is just less lethal and in easy mode if you run it as intended (6-8 encounters of medium to hard per adventuring day, for example).

Finally, as I have posted in other threads, there is the "shift" towards character-driven stories, which makes it so groups feel like the PC is the hero and shouldn't die--because the hero can't die! What kind of story is that!?

View attachment 388341

I left 5E for OSE and man did I love the decrease in Player Power Level.... until they started dropping like flies.

Which to be fair, Levels 1-3 are the test by fire. Players are supposed to act wise and strategic, not just rush into a room knowing the have a 90% chance of survival.

Even after a few house rules for survivability, OSE is still pretty lethal. I think I found a happy medium.

BUT I've also realized the players aren't attached to the characters. Maybe that will change now that they are out of the danger zone levels but all I think about is the fiction I read (Dragonlance, Drizzt, etc) and how the heroes never really died.

I wouldnt mind a happy medium with 5E where the players dont just assume they will steamroll any encounter but also can form an attachment to their character.

A hard edge to dance on.

 

[Mistwell]

I said once per campaign, but really I want to say as often as the fates make it happen. It's not the quantity of deaths that I think about, it's just that it be a present risk that, if we are foolish AND our luck is poor, we will die.

 

[ezo]

FYI this means absolutely nothing to me... so I have no idea if you are trying to make a point or just be silly???

A hard edge to dance on.

Very much so.

I have found 5E can work to not be on easy mode, but you just have to add house-rules, remove certain things, and/or ramp up the difficulty of encounters.

I left 5E for OSE and man did I love the decrease in Player Power Level.... until they started dropping like flies.

I've looked a several OSR-ish alternatives. None appeal to me. I actually had a former player (who is now DMing a game I am playing in! Yippee!!! ) ask me last night about playing 1E! He got to play a one-shot before and enjoyed the change of pace. So, all I can say is there is hope yet for the "we don't want to just know we will win" game.

 

[mamba]

With only one spell cater in our group (and a low magic setting) it makes that style pretty easy for us to play in 5e

yes, that definitely helps, but I would not consider your group to be the norm

 

[DarkCrisis]

FYI this means absolutely nothing to me... so I have no idea if you are trying to make a point or just be silly???


Very much so.

I have found 5E can work to not be on easy mode, but you just have to add house-rules, remove certain things, and/or ramp up the difficulty of encounters.


I've looked a several OSR-ish alternatives. None appeal to me. I actually had a former player (who is now DMing a game I am playing in! Yippee!!! ) ask me last night about playing 1E! He got to play a one-shot before and enjoyed the change of pace. So, all I can say is there is hope yet for the "we don't want to just know we will win" game.

Old School is fine, just start them at like level 3 or 4 (worth of Fighter XP). The issue is when one longsword hit can kill you. It's why AC is so important. You actually are hard to hit.

When you have 20 AC and the boss monster has +5 to hit. It still needs a 15 or better to hit you. Odds aren't in his favor. But that ONE hit he does land can be devastating.

Like I said a few house rules (like -3 is dead and healing gets you back on your feet instead of still needing to go back to town) work great.

Seems easier to upgrade old school then downgrade 5E. IMO

 

[TwoSix]

It is not really that I want characters to die, but I want there to be a genuine feel of peril sometimes, and to get that you need to exceed the encounter building guidelines to ludicrous degree. Fights that are just risk free baby seal clubbing are not really fun to anyone.

(I know that they changed the encounter building math in 5.5, but I haven't tried that yet.)

I think there's an underlying question here of "Do you need to see peril actually have tangible results for the rules to feel perilous?"

Like, if you play 40 sessions with 5 PCs, going from levels 1-10, and no PC ever dies, did the rules still feel perilous? Does seeing several "2 failed death saves" clutch saves do enough to make the game feel risky, even if no one dies?

I'm honestly not sure.

 

[TwoSix]

FYI this means absolutely nothing to me... so I have no idea if you are trying to make a point or just be silly???

Always good to see when someone's avatar and tagline have some real-world basis.