D&D General Dark Sun as a Hopepunk Setting

[Mistwell]

Well, the game part is getting to imagine actually overcoming those challenges and making the world a better place. If we can’t even do that in our fantasies, we’ve given up any hope of doing so in real life. Hence the name, hopepunk. It was conceived as the antidote to the despair and defeatism inspired by grimdark, which tends to engage with those anxieties by wallowing in them instead of by imagining a way to overcome them.

Sure the problems in Dark Sun I am totally on board with overcoming. But those problems...they're not actually the specific array of problems we're dealing with right now in our world. They're a drastically fantasy version.

 

[Mistwell]

Post #182 clearly indicates that @Mistwell is speaking for what they are claiming are a majority of people, and is apparently unapologetic about it. I stand by my statements.

If you have a problem which you think is some board violation, then just report it. Don't create a separate post. We all know what I said. I was pretty clear about my position. I am not telling you to not stand by your statements. You appear to be telling me I shouldn't stand by mine?

 

[Mistwell]

This is just a variation of the "It's an elfgame" argument. People want different things out of gaming. For example, I want different things than you. Claiming your position as the majority is falsely inflating the validity of your position. What's wrong with just stating your position without making assumptions about the positions of others?

It doesn't have to be an elfgame.

It does have to be a fantasy game.

It is one of the very few inherent defining elements of the game. You're free to want things different than what I want and I never said or implied different. I said I think it's absolutely fair to state D&D is a fantasy game not intended to actually be about real life.

 

[Charlaquin]

Sure the problems in Dark Sun I am totally on board with overcoming. But those problems...they're not actually the specific array of problems we're dealing with right now in our world. They're a drastically fantasy version.

Well, yeah, that layer of allegory helps keep it from getting “too real.”

 

[Gradine]

I'm doing just that. I am speaking for a majority of people who do not want to play with real life problems in their games. I think it's a completely fair assumption to make. It's really quite rare I'd go out on a limb and speak for a majority of people, but when discussing 1) a fantasy, and 2) game, I do in fact think it's totally fair to make this assumption as it's a basic assumption built into the concept. It is a core conceit of playing a fantasy tabletop roleplaying game that you are not attempting to replicate this world's real life problems, at least for this kind of game.

There are role playing games that could or would fit that kind of concept. D&D is not one of them. It's right there in the name the type of game D&D is, and I don't think it's rude or stepping on toes to just plainly state it. If you want to play real-life TTRPG, I can recommend some games built for that kind of concept.

I would say that that's a completely unfair assumption to make. I wouldn't claim one way or another which would make up a "majority" of gamers, but I can absolutely point to the fact that some of the most famous and popular fantasy franchises (including games) are absolutely about something. One of the most popular fantasy video game franchises is Final Fantasy, and by far and away the most popular game in that franchise is Final Fantasy 7, which is definitely a game and has some things to say. Most good fantasy has things to say. Wheel of Time sure did. Hell, the ur-example, Lord of the Rings, has a hell of a lot of things to say. To say that calling to mind modern issues is antithetical to fantasy (or games) is completely counter-factual. The purpose of fiction in general is to say something.

Now, is there a difference between a work of fiction (even an interactive work of fiction, like a video game) and a tabletop roleplaying games? Sure. Does that mean all tabletop role-playing games (or even just D&D) are ill-equipped to address modern issues? Absolutely not. Every game I've run and played in has been about something relevant to me/my players. And I've played a lot of D&D. So to say that D&D isn't capable of doing such a thing is also counter-factual, and to say that it shouldn't be used to do such a thing is to declare a whole lot of people playing the game wrong, which I really hope you wouldn't be doing.

That's not to say that there's nothing wrong with pure escapism; it is definitely something that we all indulge in all the time. I wouldn't necessarily say that it's wrong to prefer it. But to say that's the only purpose of D&D or fantasy games is to ignore the absolutely transformative potential of role-playing games.

 

[Mistwell]

Well, yeah, that layer of allegory helps keep it from getting “too real.”

Which is all I was saying. Micah appears to be arguing the game should actually replicate our real world problems and claims that's what he wants from D&D and that it's wrong to say a majority wouldn't want that. This, despite my having seen him post about fantasy elements he seems to enjoy in D&D, for years and years now.

 

[Micah Sweet]

It doesn't have to be an elfgame.

It does have to be a fantasy game.

It is one of the very few inherent defining elements of the game. You're free to want things different than what I want and I never said or implied different. I said I think it's absolutely fair to state D&D is a fantasy game not intended to actually be about real life.

Fantasy is a very broad genre and can mean different things to different people.

 

[Mistwell]

I would say that that's a completely unfair assumption to make. I wouldn't claim one way or another which would make up a "majority" of gamers, but I can absolutely point to the fact that some of the most famous and popular fantasy franchises (including games) are absolutely about something.

How is being "about something" being about "our specific something in real life?"

One of the most popular fantasy video game franchises is Final Fantasy, and by far and away the most popular game in that franchise is Final Fantasy 7, which is definitely a game and has some things to say. Most good fantasy has things to say. Wheel of Time sure did. Hell, the ur-example, Lord of the Rings, has a hell of a lot of things to say. To say that calling to mind modern issues is antithetical to fantasy (or games) is completely counter-factual. The purpose of fiction in general is to say something.

I think we're confusing positions here. I am saying a defining characteristic is it must have a flavor of fantasy to it, not that it cannot grapple with real issues under that guise of fantasy. Micha is saying it should LITERALLY be about our actual issues, and that it's wrong to claim it needs to be under a fantasy veneer, and that saying so is no better than claiming it's an "elfgame."

 

[Micah Sweet]

Which is all I was saying. Micah appears to be arguing the game should actually replicate our real world problems and claims that's what he wants from D&D and that it's wrong to say a majority wouldn't want that. This, despite my having seen him post about fantasy elements he seems to enjoy in D&D, for years and years now.

I like a lot of fantasy elements. I also prefer a setting where, outside of those elements, the world operates very much like our own.

 

[abirdcall]

Sure, but also, its place in Dungeons & Dragons has almost entirely faded from significance. That's not to say anyone is wrong for liking it, but it is fairly factual that D&D has more or less moved on from alignment, in particular its use as a "straightjacket" for roleplaying.

It still is very much in 2024 both for character creation and in the cosmology.

I just don't see the need to yuck people's yum in this regard.

I like it and it is tiring when people say that it is either useless or a hindrance to a good game.